HOD

[Carder]

Yesterday Journey was acting like a nut, spinning around and jumping while I made her lunch and suddenly she yelped in pain and began limping. The vet said it looked like she'd twisted her leg and she wrapped it up and gave us some pain medicine. Today Journey was worse. The swelling was worse and she was in pain. I made an appt. with the vet and then emailed Journey's breeder to tell her what was happening and she informed me that two of Journey's littermates have HOD and I should have the vet check for that. Well, guess what? We have HOD. I can't believe it. I've been so careful to do everything right! My vet thinks it's the food she's eating. I feed her Eagle Pack Natural(recommended by Linda Arndt). She thinks it has too many vitamins & supplements in it and her opinion is that I should feed her Pedigree or Science Diet--some other adult maintenance food. She also put Journey on Vitamin C and buffered aspirin. Anyone have any experience with HOD? (One more thing--I have recent pictures of Journey which I'm DYING to share with others. I mean...I'm just about to bust! Anybody want one?)

[Carolyn]

Hi Carder,
Are her front legs (knuckles) swollen or is just one, are her back legs swollen or just the front. Is she having problems getting up? Walking? Is she running a temperature?
Answers to these questions will help in the diagnosis or the severity of her case and what your options are. I dont want to say your vet misdiagnosed her but the symptons may also be a sign of something else.
HOD is not genetic, so to say two of her littermates have HOD, doesnt mean thats what Journey has. HOD is directly related to to food/caleries in and exercise out and the metabolism of your puppy. One pup may get 26% protein, be crated all day, walked in the evening and get HOD at 4 months, yet another pup given the same routine next door may not. HOD has highs and lows, (depending on the severity), one day she may do good--get up on her own/be more mobile and the next day---she cant get up, crys in pain from just lying there and must be carried outside to do her pottying.
I would recommend instantly dropping her kibble protein to 20%, (no treats or anything added), give her a 2 tablespoons of tonic (which is a mixture of equal parts raw apple cider vinigar and honey---heat & stir to mix and store at room temperature) on a piece of bread twice a day. Give her a comfortable place lay and give pain medication (many doctors give Rimydl--but there is controversy on this medication). And also (like your vet recommended) give her 1000mg of Vit C 3 x's a day. That sounds like alot but considering what her system is going thru, I feel necessary---watch to make sure she doesnt get diarrhea, if she does cut back on the Vit C till it stops.
What makes me wonder is why did 3 pups out of the same litter come down with HOD---my first thought is that the breeder did not specify to the new puppy buyers how critical a low protein diet was, or she did and they didnt follow it, or the pups systems are extremely sensitve to the calorie intake-exercise out. I know Carder that you have stated how good the breeder is and how well you have taken care of Journey, so the latter reason seems like the likely choice. Good Luck, most pups survive HOD and do well(after the intial onset), especially if caught in the early stages.

[astridj]

Let's hope & keep our fingers crossed that Carolyn is right and that it'll straighten itself out with careful diet - IF it really is HOD and not just a sprained leg, which from the sounds of it is entirely possible. I remember everyone anxiously awaiting news as to whether you'd have any difficulties bringing Journey home on the plane ... a real cliffhanger! And yes, I'd love to see some photos of what Journey looks like these days ... you can e-mail me at ajohnson@bartellmachinery.com
Meanwhile, Journey will be in our thoughts. Astrid

[jpy]

Here are some sites for you to read. Important to distinguish between HOD & pseudo-HOD. From what I have seen HOD seems to run in families. Maybe they are bigger boned, have a faster metabolism or are just more sensitive to diet or ? who knows?
But it surely seems, as is your experience, that littermates in various homes even eating according to the breeder's demands, can still get it(i.e. not your fault is what i mean). These things just happen? Jill Swedlow you already know & she seems very knowledgeable about it-might try her for help? Sorry!
If you can find a vet to help support this you might try what we did with this in the ortho clinic i worked for. we put these pups on a good quality reduced fat or senior food with a low, low protein & fat content (18/8 was typical). made sure they were healthy, but practically starved them for calories & kept them quiet (mostly cage rest) & gave them painkillers as needed (banamine was the popular choice, but now I understand Ascriptin some like & others like Rimadyl). 2000 mg. VitC for general immune support, & a vitamin daily as they pups nearly starved for this month or so of treatment. i wold add in an atibiotic myself, having read what Hazel Gregory & Jill Swedlow have written, just to cover myself, i think. (never had HOD in my dogs, so have no personal experience, just cared for others' sick pups.)
good luck--hopefull ya'll will be lucky & come thru this. we'll all be thinking of you & little Journey! best wishes. jp

[jpy]

http://www.netpets.org/~sunny/dane_health.html#HOD
http://www.artreality.com/portfolio/wdwork/vet/growingpains.htm
http://www.newmanveterinary.com/lameness.htm
http://amstaff.net/HD1.html
http://www.golden-retriever.com/food.html
http://www.doglogic.com/lgpupdiet.htm
http://www.newmanveterinary.com/large.html#Large Breed Puppies:

[Rayna]

My Dane was diagnosed with HOD. She had good days and bad. At first she would cry when moved. Then she ran a fever and would start limping. Her appetite was always good. I took her to work(I work at a Vet Clinic). We took some x-rays. At the same time, her jaw bone was swollen, but that turned out to be another problem. According to the medical book, HOD is not just in Danes, but can be in any large breed. It is classified as a growing disease. Vets do not know what causes it. Some breeders
seem to think it is caused by nutrition or is hereditary. I read about one breeder that had never heard about until almost everyone of her pups from one litter got it. I don't think it
has to do with being locked up. My dog's brother also got it. My dog Zada was only 3 months when she got it, but her brother was 6 1/2 months old. It can be fatal because of the high fevers, and can also cripple the dogs. I was lucky with Zada, she is fine now. Many vets do misdiagnose it's because they have never seen it. My Vet didn't know what it was, but he looked it up in his medical book. Our first thought was bone cancer. The x-rays looked alot like bone cancer. I hope this helps.

[CAHARLS]

I feed her Eagle Pack Natural(recommended by Linda Arndt).She thinks it has too many vitamins & supplements in it and her
>opinion is that I should feed her Pedigree or Science Diet--some other adult maintenance food. She also put Journey on Vitamin C and buffered aspirin. Anyone have any experience
>with HOD? <<

Hi There!

There is a Dr. in Washington that Georgia Hymmen and others highly recommend for danes and he switches all dane pups to Pedigree when they show signs of HOD or Pano.

Don't worry it's not your fault! These things are normal in dane pups. This Dr. said if you xray all of the dane pups out there a majority of them have some sort of HOD or Pano going on. You just don't see it.

Good Luck!

Renee

[witzn]

>Renee wrote:

>These things are normal in
>dane pups. This Dr. said
>if you xray all of
>the dane pups out there
>a majority of them have
>some sort of HOD or
>Pano going on. You just
>don't see it.
>

"These things" are _not_ normal . Yes they are more prevalent in certain situations (diet etc) and blood lines, but I can't agree it should be passed off as something to be expected.

I have heard before that there can be a psuedo-HOD that has come up supposedly connected with certain vaccines or vaccine regimines.

sandy

[jpy]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-01 AT 10:04PM (PST)[p]I find it astonishing anyone, let alone a osteopath & researcher (presumably) would say that painful, sometimes crippling or even life-threatening DODs (Developmental Osteodystrophies) such as HOD (or even Pano) are "normal." I've seen lots of Xrays for lots of Dane pups & I've not seen any pattern of them having DODs necessarily; I'm sure lots of breeders, vets, vettechs, etc. would say the same & for all that we're not researchers you'd think if this *WAS* such a widespread phenomenon, it would have been noticed & commented upon? Anyway, I'd very much like to see the references for the work & for these comments from Dr. Washington.

Posted in this thread already (which is ages old & the dog in question was misdiagnosed anyway) are the appropriate breed-related articles on HOD (Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy) & "Pseudo-HOD" a disease that appears to be of an infectious/immunological nature that creates HOD-like symptoms (but needs a very different treatment). The latter is the one, I believe that Sandy@witzn refers to, & is the same one that Hazel Gregory of Von Riesenhof Danes was acute enough to first identify in our breed & she helped develop the treatment for it in fact. (Urls for both are listed above.)

I'd think that putting dogs with signs of DODs on Science Diet and/or Pedigree is a pretty widespread strategy, as is the notion that many "premium" foods are still too nutrient dense for the more susceptible puppy. I know I've heard this from many a vet and breeder & in fact Carol Beene of Crickhollow has a comment to that effect just in this past week to a puppy owner who had a similar situation (of possible incipient HOD). I know this is the reason many old breeders still feed Pedigree or Purina, in fact. Dane World had a long article by Laura Kialenaus of BMW where she talked about feeding Purina; Mary Loftin of Vindane still recommends this tried & true method, and many folks I've talked to say the same things & tell you they prefer Pedigree. Veterinarians tend to use Science Diet with the same ideas in mind IME (which includes several years with a DVM orthopedic surgeon who lived with & reared Great Danes).

So IME HOD is hardly a breed-wide dilemma & in fact it is my understanding than many breeders and/or owners go on for generations/multiple dogs without any such cases at all, while others have struggled with various therapies/diets, etc. & still have problems with a variety of DODs. Naturally such DODs tend to cluster in bone-heavy breeds, but it's not the case that the problem is breed-wide, & certainly there *IS* a suggestion that certain body types within a breed (particularly big or heavy boned dogs), if not actually certain bloodlines, are more prone to these DODs than others. It's also the case that nutrition plays a particular role in at least triggering the typical form of HOD.

So I'd have to concur with Sandy@witzn, that, whatever causes are involved in these DODs, I'd hardly be willing to call them "normal." Although that surely doesn't mean that any of us are automatically apportioning blame on any owner or breeder. I don't personally see where blame anyway comes into it, as all one can do with these rather murky areas is one's best with the information at hand, which won't necessarily guarantee success.

[Stacie]

JPY and others,

Would you recommend that most Dane pups up to a year should be feed a less enriched food than Eagle 23/12 or Nutro? Or is it a more case by case thing and "high quality" food should be feed until there is a medical reason to feed something diffent?

~Stacie

[Carol]

"If it ain't broke don't fix it". If a pup is not having problems on 23% protein, then fine, feed that amount. When I fed kibble I did have the beginnings of HOD on 23% protein so I dropped to 21% and had no problems.

[jpy]

what carol said.<grin>jpy

[Stacie]

Thanks you two. Just checking....

[CAHARLS]

>I find it astonishing anyone, let alone a osteopath & researcher presumably) would say that painful, sometimes crippling or even life-threatening DODs (Developmental Osteodystrophies) such as HOD (or even Pano) are "normal

whatever causes are involved in these DODs, I'd hardly be willing to call them "normal."

I do agree with you that I was shocked when he said this, *BUT* again he said, if you xray all of the dane pups out there a majority of them have **some** sort of HOD or Pano going on (even the pups on 20% protien). You just don't see it. The *some sort* referring to a slight case of it, NOT the crippling and painful signs of HOD or Pano. This is his OPINION!! NOT MINE!!

If you would like to contact this DR. then Email me and I will send you his info.

[jpy]

WHy not put his info up here for all to see? If you don't want to do that, then email it to me plz: chromadane@juno.com. "IF" isn't "Have" of course, & theory isn't practice, so I'd be most eager to see actual results he has, not just personal opinions (ie. the number of GD pups he has actually radiographed & the results thereof) & I'm sure I 'm not the only one. Again I'll repeat I've seen a whole lot of pup Xrays in certain Dane families & nary a sign of osteo abnormalities at all & I'd be loth to call a pathological condition normal as t implies our breed is fundamentally defective.
Also plz a CV (Curriculum Vitae) if you have it (his credentials)--I am assuming at this point (given these claims) this is a Board Certified DMV Osteopath & someone who has a current research project going. If not, then don't bother, as without some actual evidence, the whole thing is surely a waste of time for us all? TIA/jpy

[harleyandcooper]

Our Dane puppy was diagnosed with HOD around 4 months. The vet feels that the cause was improper diet from when he was born to about 3 months...he is a deaf dane and was not treated well by the breeder.

Our puppy got so bad that he could not hold himself in a sit or stand position...he laid on the floor helpless for an entire week. Once finally diagnosed through x-rays, the vet prescibed an anti-inflammatory. He also recommended a "homeopathic" remedy of honey and apple vinegar (mixed up and put on his food). We also started giving him N-Zymes.

I'm not which of these things helped...but almost immediately he started getting stronger. For a few more months, he would wobble a little bit when putting his weight on his front legs.

He is doing great now and shows no signs of pain (he is now 1 year old).

Good luck with your Dane. I hope one of these "remedies" will help you, too.

[Carder]

It turns out that Journey was misdiagnosed with HOD. She had injured her leg (bumping into a barstool) but as soon as it healed, she was fine. She's had no trouble at all with her joints. Thank God!

Jane & Journey
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1476910&a=11120469&p=42607097