Eye color??

[Melissa]

Hey everybody,

Does anyone know when a pup's eyes change??? My pup has greyish eyes and I'm assuming they are going to turn blue. He's 14 weeks now and I have no idea when they should change color, or even if they are. I'm just sort of curious, it's not really a major big deal. I think I would rather his eyes stay this color, it's pretty cool and kinda matches his coat (he's a somewhat mantle marked merle). Anyway, if anyone has any info I'd appreciate it. Thanks!!

[Rene]

Gosh, I don't know the answer either. I was wondering about the same thing with my little girl too. Sylver is a blue mantle with grey eyes to match her coat....I wondered if her eyes were going to change to a different shade of grey or blue eventually too. Will be interesting to see answers regarding this..... :)

[Carolyn]

Since I have fawn/brindle and all their eyes are med dk to dk brown at birth, I have no experience in this area. I do know though, that by 6/7 months of age, the eye color of my 2 legged children is what they have ended up with.
Carolyn
Divine Acres Great Danes

[Bev_K]

The eye color you see now is probably a transition phase. The eyes probably started out blue and will end up brown. My first merle had the brightest blue eyes when I brought him about (at about 7ish weeks) and they gradually turned to a beautiful caramel brown color.

The standard calls for "dark" eyes in any color, although lighter eyes in harls & associated colors is very normal (acceptable as well, just not desired). Some harls end up with blue eyes for life or very light brown eyes. Blue dogs often have very light colored eyes as well. Other colors that have blues or harls behind them in their pedigree can also have lighter eyes. I've seen blacks out of blue breedings that have very light brown eyes.

I guess I don't know the exact age the eyes change, as in my experience it's been so gradual I barely noticed. :) By a year, at the latest, I would imagine one would see the final color the dog's eyes will end up.

Bev

[witzn]

Although Sylver is a striking grey blue color, she is NOT a blue mantle. She is a merle mantle.

In order to be a blue a dog would lack black pigment, and it is obvious in her pics that she has nice strong black pigment.

As to eye color, by 8 - 14 wks I would think the eye color is pretty much resolved. they change in shade a little, but not drastically.

sandy

[Rene]

>Although Sylver is a striking grey blue color, she is NOT a
>blue mantle. She is a merle mantle.
>
>In order to be a blue a dog would lack black pigment, and it
>is obvious in her pics that she has nice strong black
>pigment.
>
>As to eye color, by 8 - 14 wks I would think the eye color
>is pretty much resolved. they change in shade a little, but
>not drastically.
>
>sandy

Huh??? *confused* Where do you see black pigment in Sylver? I thought merles were that true grey/black spotted looking pattern?? Sylver is a blue grey, not a true grey, in color and she isn't spotted.....she is two different solid colors in a mantle pattern. Can you explain this to me please?

[JLI]

Rene, what color is Sylvar's nose? It looks black in the picture. If she were blue, wouldn't it be blue? I need to go back and read the color descirptions myself again.

[Rene]

actually, no, it isn't black.....its a dark blue. I don't see any black on her. I know that "pigment" is like an under color and her mom was a black and white though so there's black in her genes. Can her nose darken maybe as she gets older? I have always used the term blue mantle because thats the best way to describe her....she's not just a blue and white; to me, that means she is colored blue and white but not in a particular pattern.

[cinnymon]

My Harlequin started out with blue eyes and then one changed to green and the other stayed blue then they both were green with a blue splotch on the bottom of his left eye which gives it the appearance that it is blue now at 7mos he has two brown eyes that sometimes give the appearance of hazel eyes but he still has the blue splotch on the left eye. Who knows whats next LOL :)

[witzn]

I saw black on her here:

http://66.72.168.20/rene/sylver4.html

I guess it is the lighting? it looks as if her nose and whiskers
are black as well as eye rims.

the color merle varies greatly from pearl grey to muddy brownish black, with varying amounts of other colors included.

She could be blue or merle, but a blue doesn't carry black
pigment.

What color was her father?

sandy

[Melissa]

Thanks for all the info everyone. I guess I'll just wait and see. I was kind of hoping for blue eyes, his mom had 2 blue eyes, not sure about dad. I'm sure it is going to be very interesting to see how he ends up. He's my unique little boy! :-) Rene, Sylver is darling! I wish I had taken more pictures of Zeke when his was a tiny baby. He's growing so fast! I can't keep film in the camera now! Have a good weekend all!! And thanks again for the info

Melissa, Roxee, and Zeke

[Rene]

>My Harlequin started out with blue eyes and then one changed
>to green and the other stayed blue then they both were green
>with a blue splotch on the bottom of his left eye which
>gives it the appearance that it is blue now at 7mos he has
>two brown eyes that sometimes give the appearance of hazel
>eyes but he still has the blue splotch on the left eye. Who
>knows whats next LOL :)

Anything with green sounds beautiful to me!! My eyes are green so I'm partial. *hehe*

[Rene]

>I saw black on her here:
>
>http://66.72.168.20/rene/sylver4.html
>
>I guess it is the lighting? it looks as if her nose and
>whiskers
>are black as well as eye rims.
>
>the color merle varies greatly from pearl grey to muddy
>brownish black, with varying amounts of other colors
>included.
>
>She could be blue or merle, but a blue doesn't carry black
>pigment.
>
>What color was her father?
>
>sandy


I'll have to look at the eye rims cause I'm not sure but all the whiskers are white. TO ME, a merle is a grey/grey with black spots on it...thats how I've always associated a merle being colored and thats the color of all the merles that I've ever seen. Now granted I haven't seen every merle in the world either. :) My girl is a blue/grey and there are no spots and she isn't black anywhere, despite her obvious black color genes; her mom is a black/white and her father is a harl. She has two very distinctive solid colors in the form of the traditional mantle, therefore, I will always describe her as a blue mantle. That is always how others have referred to her as as well until now. If I start calling her a merle mantle, I'm going to be called crazy!! :9 (wouldn't be the first time though *LOL*)

[Rene]

>Thanks for all the info everyone. I guess I'll just wait
>and see. I was kind of hoping for blue eyes, his mom had 2
>blue eyes, not sure about dad. I'm sure it is going to be
>very interesting to see how he ends up. He's my unique
>little boy! :-) Rene, Sylver is darling! I wish I had taken
>more pictures of Zeke when his was a tiny baby. He's
>growing so fast! I can't keep film in the camera now! Have
>a good weekend all!! And thanks again for the info
>
>Melissa, Roxee, and Zeke

Melissa,

How do you pronounce his name....is it like "Zeek".....or "Zek"....or "ZeeKee"??? I'm soooooooooooo glad I have baby pictures too cause they grow so fast. I still have a roll to develop from when she was 6 weekks old.

[gmac]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always assumed that the Merle term had more to do with the genetic marker of the dog, rather than it's color? In other words, even though Maggie is black and white and came from harlequin parents, she is not genetically a harlequin. Thus, Sylver would be a lightly-marked merle. The merle gene can manifest itself in many different color patterns...Sandy, am I totally off the mark on this? Time to dig out the genetics 101 again.

[Melissa]

Hey Rene,

It is pronounced like "Zeek". He is the best puppy! I took him to his first social gathering tonight and he behaved like an angel. He was a hit! Everyone raved at how cute and laid back he was!! Someone asked if all GD pups were like that, is Sylver pretty laid back? I'm glad this outing went well b/c I am hoping very much to get him certified as a therapy dog. He starts puppy class in january and hopefully he will get his CGC after finishing it. :-)

Melissa, Roxee, and Zeke

[Rene]

I just found the following site that has colored examples of genetic colors and patterns in the great dane:

http://www.greatdanerescueinc.com/examples.html

I do not know how accurate the person was that wrote it but on the page are examples of both a blue boston (their term) and a merle mantle. The blue mantle is two solid colors; the merle mantle is two colors, one being spotted.

Genetics in canines I know very little about...I'm going strictly the look of my dog, not whats in her genes, to describe her color.

[witzn]

>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always assumed that
>the Merle term had more to do with the genetic marker of the
>dog, rather than it's color?

It's used both ways - certain colors carry the Merle gene: Merle, Harl & Whites.

It's also a color both on a dog and of a dog - a harl will usually have somewhere on them a merle spot or marking.

But like any other dog base color, a dog can be solid merle, mantle patterned merle, merle with socks, etc (just like black, blue, fawn, brindle)


>lightly-marked merle. The merle gene can manifest itself in
>many different color patterns...

Yes, all the assorted patterns and as I mentioned a very wide assortment of shadings. It really doesn't matter which color Sylver is, but the black pigment or lack thereof shows which she is.

It would/should matter to the breeder, as if Sylver is a blue it marks both her parents as blue carriers and they should at least not be rebred to each other.

sandy

[Rene]

>It would/should matter to the breeder, as if Sylver is a
>blue it marks both her parents as blue carriers and they
>should at least not be rebred to each other.
>
>sandy


Ya know....when I first got Sylver and about a week after I brought her home, I got to thinking.....those people kept a blue male from the same litter. I have a sneaking suspicion that they are going to breed those dogs again and may even at some point, put mother with son. :-( Thats just what my gut is thinking. I believed them when they told me that it was an accidently breeding to begin with but now I'm not so sure.

[kkm]

There must have been a blue in that line somwhere. I would say that she is the bluest mantle I have ever seen! She is a beauty! I had a Blue Mantle rescue once out of a Fawn and a blue! Strange! She was a little darker blue but looked very much like your girl. The best of luck to you and your new baby. KKm and Gang

[MuchAdo]

>Yes, all the assorted patterns and as I mentioned a very wide >assortment of shadings. It really doesn't matter which color Sylver >is, but the black pigment or lack thereof shows which she is.

>It would/should matter to the breeder, as if Sylver is a blue it >marks both her parents as blue carriers and they should at least not >be rebred to each other.

I very rarely post, preferring to read, but had to jump in on this one: Of course she's a blue mantle. Blues don't have grey noses and eyerims, they have very dark slate that is indistinguisable from black unless you see a blue and a black next to each other, and very often not even then. A correct blue is very darkly pigmented, and may even have a shades-to-black tail. From what I could see, Sylver and probably that litterbrother she's pictured with in one pic are most definitely blue mantles. It's not that unusual in harl litters, on the frequency level of fawniquins. In the UK and Australia, blue harls are acceptable so blue mantles tend to appear even more often than in the US. It does indeed mean that both parents carry the dilution gene--BOTH parents, not just one.

A mantle merle would have some spotting, and even if by some freakish chance he or she did not, the background would be grizzled mouse-grey, not the clear blue that Sylver obviously has.

Oh, and by the way, her eye color will probably change to light brown or dark yellow. A blue who still has grey eyes at 14 weeks probably won't have the correct medium-brown eye (dark brown is impossible due to the action of the dilution gene) but they will not stay grey or go to blue.

Just wanted to clear up an obvious blue misconception--they have enough misconceptions as it is :-)

Joanna Kimball
and Lucy the beautiful blue Dane
www.geocities.com/djkimball99

[2bb6k]

Just a little note,my merle had two bright blue eyes as a pup and when he was about 17weeks one of them turned green and then brown. If I remember correctly, by 20 weeks he had one blue and one brown and they have stayed that way ever since.

Tara & the boys

[JenR]

Riley, who was a white with large grey and smaller balck patches, had one green eye, and one eye that was 3/4 blue and 1/4 brown. Also, his nose was mostly pink when he was a puppy and then gradually became all black. I never quite understood how his eyes turned out the way they did, but they were fascinating to look at!

Jennifer

[Nicole34]

My harl has one blue eye and one brown and blue eye. The blue and brown eye form a perfect 1/2 circle each. I hope it doesn't change.:) :)

[Melissa]

That is pretty cool. Zeke's eyes still haven't turned a definite color yet. He's 18 weeks. I'm still waiting and seeing ;-) :-)

[Sonja]

This is an interesting thread!

When I went to see my harl pup for the firt time he was 6&1/2 weeks old. He had one blue eye and one hazel eye. At 7&1/2 weeks the hazel had turned brown and the blue had turned hazel. Today, at 14 weeks of age he has one dark brow eye, and 1 light brown eye with a blue splotch in the bottom of it.

I hope they stay this way as it looks pretty cool. And since he won't show in confo, no worries!!

[Jax Birchmuck]

Hello;
I have done a lot of reserch on the hlqn and the way genitics are hlqn is a wht blanket over a base coat....so if you see a hlqn with blk and merle patches those dogs are truley merles, the black you see is a black spot on the base coat of merle...that mousy blue-gray. A blue is a dilute of black, not merle but if you breed blue and merle you can get a dilute merle with no black spotting and the gray mousy color can be even lighter. see The Great Dane by Anna Katherine Nicholas chapter #9 page 205 mid way down. Most people confuse the pie balding white/ as seen on other breeds too!/ seen on blues, fawns, brindles and blacks out of only blacks with no hlqn in the back ground, is NOT the same white as seen on the hlqn or the mantle dane although you can mistake white on the chest and toes as mantle/ pie-bald on these. I have been researching with little sucess so far but I'll venture out that the eye color also is affected by these two different whites and dilutes. A hlqn can have blue eyes, dark eyes, lighter eyes and even the yellow eyes of the blue, now I believe and this is only me talking, that the yellow eye of the blue is a dilute of black pigment and that causes the yellowing as you do not get this in any other color except hlqn. Now the lighter eye color in hlqn I believe comes from the merle gene pool as I have only heard of it in merles, hlqn, and blks out of some type of merle breeding...even if the hlqn had a merle patch under the white coat by the eye. That is why you see walleyed danes, it all depends on the coat under the white by the eye. The blue eye comes from the hlqn white gene. All dogs that I have ever seen with blue eyes, sky blue color are either whites or a white was used in the breedings. If any one has a white dog with no spots and has onther than pink/ albino/ eyes or the sky blue eyes PLEASE contact me for this is a one in a gazillon!
The white of th hlqn is dominate over all others and a dog with all of the genes dominate like that are superior in size and growth BUT< all of these dogs do have some sensitivity to light because of the lack of pigment and all have pink noses, pink gums, pink paw pads and are prone to deafness and are most likely in fertile....now these are my observations please give feed back if you have some thing constructive to bring to this research. So i hope this clears up alittle about the eye thing.
Jax

[Carolyn]

<<The white of th hlqn is dominate over all others and a dog with all of the genes dominate like that are superior in size and growth>>

Can you clarify this statement?? Are you trying to say that white dogs are superior in size because of the white gene?
Carolyn
Divine Acres Great Danes

[Jax Birchmuck]

Dear Carolyn:
I believe the answer to the question is yes...Here in my area there are several local breeders who have and have tried to breed whites. These whites with no pigment, blue eyes, pink noses, pink gums and pink paw pads are far bigger than even the other normally marked litter mates and attain adult size sooner and once again a far surpass total size at adult hood with same diet, excerise, everything being equal. A good example was a dog named JOHNNY, that was a litter mate to my males father...my males father was 190-200lbs stood roughly 37-38" johnny same time 245-255lbs and roughly 39" at the shoulders respectfully...I have a pic I am trying to find that shows the two side by side next to a 5' fence and johnny's head is completly over it, yet he still looked square and conformed to the standard except for the color,eye thing. Do you have some evidence other than this I would love to hear I a currently writing about my observations..any thing could and would be very helpful!
Jax birchmuck

[Carolyn]

I am the first to admit that genetics is not my forte, but I will say that the color gene has nothing to do with your growth and hormones genes.
Carolyn
Divine Acres Great Danes

[IZspots]

I had a harl litter of 10. There was 1 white puppy in the litter. He was the biggest puppy and is the biggest adult dog now. He has blue eyes and is deaf.
Dawn

[Jax Birchmuck]

Could you e-mail me with any insites as I am studing whites and their problems and need as much data as possible. Thank You
Jax

[astridj]

"If any one has a white dog with no spots and has onther than pink/ albino/ eyes or the sky blue eyes PLEASE contact me for this is a one in a gazillon!"

Why, so you can breed him/her also?
x(

[astridj]

Size isn't everything! WOnder how old your monster-danes got? Surely you won't mind sharing that info? Personally, why would anyone want a 200+ lb danes. After all boar hunting is OUT now? And breeding whites.. Yikes !!! (again).

[Jax Birchmuck]

Dear astrid j and zoo;
I tire of your constant lack of being able to read what is in front of you;
but once again I'll explain to you because you can't learn without the sharing of knowledge and givig of personal experience. I do not want to breed Whites, I stated I am doing research for the last six years on this subject alone. The dog in question is Johnnie and he is five years old and doing fine. He is out of BMW, Bak's V High Acre, V Meistersinger and Riverwood's lines, next you'll call all of the work these people did as some BYB's effort?!
Johnnie has a sister in the 220lb range, although I haven't weighed her like Johnnie and their is another male of that breeders line named Avalanche, he like the others out grew the other litter mates by double and reached far larger adult size. Not once though did I say that this was a good thing, it is a genetic disorder that all hlqn and Black breeders should strive to gain as much info about as possible.
Instead of taking your little unamusing cheap shots maybe you should have asked why people are breeding whites?
An excellant question....in this area pit-bulls and pit mixes are rampet, our shelters are filled and overflowing with these. People are afraid to walk down the street, this has lead to the breeding of larger dogs and the breeding of band dogs, a mix of pit bull and mastiff types, Neopolitans, Cane Corsos etc.. With this new threat and growing want many more breeders are breeding the gaint breeds, Filas, Dogo Argentinas, Canary Island dogs and Great Danes, and they are breeding them larger and larger. Which with the demand and each attempt producing larger said dogs the price increases by fold. I don't conform, condone or incourage these practices, but as an owner and breeder I morally must keep my eye and ear to this and share these experiences to anyone who wants that knowledge. The practices that are going on are outside and around the ACK, GDCA set standards and allows the possiblity to examine and explain some of the resulting gene sets.
But astrid j and zoo think that I breed and am an owner to make money, I had posted a tone you took as anger, it is truely pity that was given.You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink, you have been given the chance to expand beyond all scopes your knowledge of this breed from all kinds of sources and yet you choose with each comment to be more closed minded and foolish, WHY? Who has wronged you that you snap so venomously, if the rescue programs you are involved in has caused this bitterness then that is a shame, rescue should be about love, not retaliation. I joined to give and take in this forum, the great dane standard is ever changing, popularity at times with some judges has influnced the breed far worst than most semi-responsible BYB's ever have. If you read the other postings I have made and talk to the people I e-mail that is all I am intrested in. These misfortunes are going to lead our breed like the poodle, giant, standard and toy into a disgrace.

This will be the last repy that I will ever make to you astrid j and zoo, that saddens me for possible avenue of discussion is lost forever.
Jax

[astridj]

Didn't snap .. just asked why you were so VERY interested in such a white. That's all. If you're so hip about genetics, then I'd venture to say you'd be more cautious about breeding your mismarks.

[Jax Birchmuck]

the reason I breed my "mismarked" was by researching genetic i knew exactly what puppies I would throw. That is the difference between me and the byb's.




Jax

[gmac]

You knew exactly what the puppies would look like, eh? And that psychic ability is what distinguishes you from other, more irresponsible breeders? HAHAHAHA!!!!!

[Jax Birchmuck]

Yes, my far reaching ability allows me to visualize a litter still in the womb, or before they even breed. This great skill and talent is called research, genetics and a small little chart you can find in even the most common of dog books, the Mendelian Expectation Chart.

I took what my female throw on her pervious litter, entered those results into the chart and found my female throws recessive coat color, structure characteristics are about equal with the male. This I know because I have seen and spent time with both animals parents and grandparents. Several great dane sites and books are also available to see pictures of any further back you need to go into the pedigree.
Getting a perfectly marked hlqn as I did in this litter was just the act of putting those results and the genetic markers of my male with them and BAM! I did this all before they ever even breed, if your not doing this, of course if you breed, how can you be responsible? Even fawn breedings should go through this chart, blk. mask, white tipping, what I think is an assest to fawns the redder back color, the percentage of dilute, every char. can be charted if the time is taken and questions asked of other breedings and/or previous breeding results reviewed.
So, if you are confussed with how I could tell what I would get ....then you need to do some more research into the breed and spend a little time on genetics, just because the said animals are or aren't outwardly perfect doesn't mean they don't hold that possiblity. Research before you speak. I will gladly send you some of my notes and some easy to read genetic material that could help. What type of great danes do you own? What sort of research did you do prior to becoming an owner? Do you breed? Do you show? Show owners too should understand what went into their dogs so they understand how they got to where they are and how that dog will affect the future? Testing isn't enough, how do you know just because your dog is ofa or thyroid clear that a said mating of during this generation would not bring out a defect from several generations back if you can't even understand simple genetic princaples? Explain to me what qualifies you to judge my practices!? Are you a breeder of Hlqn's? Do you understand the coat diffences in the Hlqn color? You appear by your posting to have knowledge, yet on your profile you list nothing! I put my information for all to see and embrace both positive and negetive responses, even though I am alittle too stubborn according to my wonderful wife. Where is your information? If you can't give it out then don't give cheap shots. Asking questions is expected here that is the type of forum this is, iggorance in this forum for long is self inposed! Even if you don't believe or understand one point of view there are several views given, your type of comments hinder others from participating for fear of reprisal, but I don't fear what I can defend.....I reveled the answers to my postings............. SO I'LL BE WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWERS!
JAX

[gmac]

So sorry, Mr. Birchmuck, but you just are not worth any more of my time. If posting a few photos, and bad photos at that, of your mis-marked dogs is supposed to earn you the title of breeder of the year, then I am sorry. I also think that since you firmly believe your breeding program is the finest thing to hit the Dane world since the show crop, then there is no point in anyone trying to tell you anything. Certainly you have impressed *someone* who might visit this board as being the ultimate source of information on all things Dane-related, but that someone is, sadly, not me. As I said on my other post: gloating, arrogance, and name calling will not impress me, or change my mind. Let me guess, next you will be telling me I will "never own one of your dogs." *sigh* Guess that's my loss.

[astridj]

Still haven't got an answer for that one???

[RaCa]

Melissa, our puppies eye colors are usually set by 10 weeks. We have had any color from grey, blue, brown, mixed blue/brown to one with green eyes. Most of our white merles had blue or grey eyes that did not change. All part of the fun of owning something out of a harlequin :) Your pup sounds beautiful! Take care, Catherine www.raca-danes.com

[Melissa]

Catherine,

Well, Zeke's over 22 weeks now and his eyes are still the kind of greyish color. They look like they might try to turn blue but they are beautiful the way they are now! :-) Maybe his will stay this color like yours did!!! I hope so! :-) He's just been the most wonderful puppy and a great addition to my household! Have a great weekend!!

Melissa, Roxee, and Zeke :-)

[jpy]

If any one has a white dog with no spots and has onther than pink/ albino/ eyes or the sky blue eyes PLEASE contact me for this is a one in a gazillon!"

I'm not sure if you are asking to see white dogs with blue eyes who are not spotted, or white dogs with brown eyes, but both exist commonly. Read Little from the 1950s or genetics of coat color in dogs on a dozen links online & otherwise, and they will give you ample examples of white coat with blue eyes as well as brown eyes that don't involve any spotting genes, but rather the chinchilla locus. There is a whole category of such dogs. This is standard coat color genetics in not only the dog but mammals in general, so easy to find, and not unusual at all. Also, as most everyone has seen, breeds such as Siberians can have sky blue eyes or dark brown eyes or even one of each, all inherited completely seperately from coat color, spotting and even dilution genes. In fact AFAIK the black & white Sibs with blue eyes are one of the most popular pets around.

""I have done a lot of reserch <sic> on the hlqn and the way genitics<sic> are hlqn is a wht blanket over a base coat....<SNIP> The white of th<sic> hlqn is dominate<sic> over all others and a dog with all of the genes dominate<sic> like that are<sic> superior in size and growth BUT all of these dogs do have some sensitivity to light because of the lack of pigment and all have pink noses, pink gums, pink paw pads and are prone to deafness and are most likely in fertile....now these are my observations please give feed back if you have some thing constructive to bring to this research.."

This post in generaly really doesn't make much sense to me; maybe it's all the abbreviations, but maybe it would make sense to start with the established research on the topic of coat color in dogs, rather than try to figure out the genetics of dogs from your own personal small & random sample of experiences. Not much mystery to the topic anyway; most of it is worked out in detail. Try the links collected here for a start:
http://www.flash.net/~dby/chlinx.htm
The basics of the inheritances of "white" (a lack of pigment actually)are fairly straightforward. The summary in dogs is they can be "white" for three seperate reasons:
1. Dominant White Spotting (merle/harl genes)
2. Recessive White Spotting (irish/piebald genes)
3. Chinchilla dilution (buff/cream genes)
All three "white" genes can result in blue eyes from the resulting loss of pigment. As well as blue eyes can be inherited SEPERATE from coat color genes. Yellow eyes has NOTHING to do with coat color, BTW, see WILLIS for a short explanation of the three Ir=iris genes that result in eyes from dark brown to bright yellow. There is no advantage per se, as to size or vigour from "white" genes & in fact the opposite is documented in spotting genes, as defects & deaths result, particularly when merle/harl dominant spotting genes are involved.

And what BTW is a WHITE MERLE? I never know what Dane people mean when they use this term. WHITE MERLE in other breeds means double merle, homozygous merle, an MM dog who is normally defective. But I've seen "White Merle" used to mean everything from what others call a merlikin to what could be called a piebald merle. It seems if the dog is mostly white & has mostly grey patches it can end up being called a White Merle. Just like dogs mostly white end up being called white, whether the dog is really a piebald, a lite (pie) harl, a merlikin, a piebald merle, etc. It's too bad that in Danes this happens, as we end up using different terms for the same thing, the same terms for different things. WHITE OR WHITE MELRE should really be reserved for the double-merle (MM) dog; the dog in harl litters most likely to have various defects & the dog most breeders avoid producing whenever humanly possible as a result of this unpleasant fact of life with dogs carrying merle/harl genes.

A WHITE MERLE is is the puppy typically culled* by responsible breeders either at birth (based on identification as a white merle) or when the defects that commonly present in white merle (90% deaf, 50% with eye defects reported) show themselves. Which is why it's nicer to avoid producing them when possible & if you are going to breed harl/merle dogs you have to be prepared to cope with culling issues and what to do with deaf & blind dogs. (*Some breeders will choose to keep or perhaps GIVE away white merles IF a home willing to accept the responsibilities & liabilities involved can be found & the dog's health is not so sorely afflicted quality of life is wholly compromised.) These WHITE MERLE dogs are sadly overrepresented in rescue & it's unfortunate that many who breed harl/merle to harl/merle don't even realize the chance they are taking, or take advantage of this typical result of merle to merle breeding to claim the dogs as "rare;" just like it's sad to see people buying these "rare" colors who are often unaware of the situation they are getting into or reacting emotionally without knowing what all is involved in safely keeping a dog with ear/eye and possibly other defects. Which all goes to demonstrate whites are hardly bigger & stronger. In fact it is estimated 50% of them die as embryos, are stillborn or die as neonates in the first weeks of life. Even some that survive to be suitably homed (but hopefully not SOLD!)don't seem to last long; with many dead far before the already short lifespan expected in the Dane.

[jpy]

For folks interested in eye color, here are the basics (below) of the inheritance of pigment in the iris of dogs. Eye color "sets" around 3 months. Dilute dogs, like our blues, will have a visually lighter eye than their black littermates (even though having the same genes for eye color), as the gene that makes a black coat look blue makes the eye a flatter, lighter, more greyish shade. Spotted dogs, like in the harlequin family, can have blue eyes, called glass, wall, watch, etc. eyes, and cracked glass eyes (mixed blue & brown pigment), as their eyes, like their coats, can be spotted. Eyes which are genetically not a good dark brown but rather the less desirable yellow will typically show up as greenish instead of blue in dogs with dilution and spotting genes. Anyway, here is the way iris pigment itself is inherited, and the chart gives you a way to predict eye color.
-------------------
Here's the (semi) technical content (for those<G>
who care) on how iris (eye) color is inherited.
Three alleles for eye pigment: Ir, ir^m & ir^y.
Six possible combinations:
Ir/Ir=BK(black-brown eye)
Ir/ir^m=Dk(dark-brown eye)
Ir/ir^y=M1(medium-brown "cafe-au-lait" eye-heterozygous)
ir^m/ir^m=M2(medium-brown "cafe-au-lait" eye-homozygous)
ir^m/ir^y=ML(medium-light "golden" eye)
ir^y/ir^y=L(light eye; yellow "bird of prey" eye)

Bk x Bk=all Bk
If you breed black-velvet eyes, you get nothing but black eyes.
Bk x Dr=1Bk:1Dk
If you breed blackvelvet to dark brown, get 1/2 each.
Bk x M1=1Bk:1M
Breed black to medium eyes of the hybrid form (carries
for yellow), you get 1/2 like the black & half like the medium.
Bk x M2=all Dk
Breed black to the medium eye that is prepotent, you get
all dark eyes--not as black as the black eyed parent, but
all darker than the dark-eyed parent.
Bk x ML=1Dk:1M
Breed black eyes to medium light & get ALL darker than
the medium-light-eyed dog. Some medium, some dark brown.
(But none black-velvet.)
Bk x L=all M
Breed the black eyed dog to a light eyed bitch & get all a warm
coffee (medium) eye.
Dk x Dk=all Dk
Breed that dark brown eye to the same; all dark brown
Dk x M1=1Bk:1Dk:1M:1ML
Breed ddark brown to medium of hybrid type & get some
of everything--Black eyes, Dark eyes, Medium eyes & one
even lighter than medium.
Dk x M2=1Dk:1ML
Breed dark brown to the prepotent medium brown & half
the litter is darker than medium (but not really black).
Dk x ML=1Dk:2M:1ML
Breed dark brown to a medium-light eye & get one
actually dark for two medium-dark and one medium light
like the lighter eyed parent--3 of four are better therefore.
Dk x L=1M:1ML
Breed dark brown to light and half are medium brown,
half are medium-light--none are yellow, if none dark brown.
M1 x M1=1BK:2M:1L
Breed two hybrid medium browns & you get the weird split
again---I actually BLACK eyed, two medium-dark & one
bird of prey eye. (That's how you know it's a hybrid.)
M1 x M2=1Dk:1ML
Breed that hybrid brown to a true (prepotent) medium brown
& you get one dark for every medium eye. NO light yellow &
no black-brown. Compare this with the one directly above.
M1 x ML=1Dk:1M:1ML:1L
Breed Hybrid brown to med-light--agin the weird split. You
get one really dark eye for one really light eye & two in the
middle, a sort of medium brown.
M1 x L=1M:1L
Breed that hybrid medium brown to a light eye & you get
half medium & half light.
M2 x M2=all M
Breed two true medium brown eyes & all are the same.
M2 xML=1M:1ML
Breed that true (prepotent) medium brown to a ligher eye
& half the litter is ligher than the darker parent.
M2 x L=all ML
BReed that true medium brown to the light eye and ALL
are lighter than one parent but darker than the other.
*ML x ML=1 M:2 ML:1 L
Breed two medium light eyes. Since they are hybrids, you
get the split--one with darker, one with lighter, for every
two like the parents.
*ML x L= 1ML:1L
Breed medium light to yellow(light) & you get a 50/50 split.
L x L=all L
Light to light gives you all bird of prey eyes.
-------------------
Hope this helps those interested in the inheritance of eye color; why some dogs have this or that color of eye. regards.

[astridj]

Hmm, if I correctly recall the quote at the beginning of your post, that person is no longer "on board" ... and I don't think anyone is sorry about it }>

[Cujasky]

I am very glad to see this information, even if the original poster of the beginning comment on JP's post is not longer here(or posting under a different name? maybe?) I have seen this term "White Merle" used quite frequently on many a website. Even one site has a picture of a "white merle" pictured as a pet, then also used as a breeding animal. Very sad.:-(

[shadowknight]

My big baby Astro whom is a harl, has one brown one half blue eye. strangest thing I've ever seen

[Carol]

By-eyed is pretty common in harls. Seems to run in lines. I have several now that are that way.

[Celena]

thank you so much for posting that :)

I'm certainly interested and should you get the urge to post more info along those lines please do LOL

[Rene]

>Gosh, I don't know the answer either. I was wondering about
>the same thing with my little girl too. Sylver is a blue
>mantle with grey eyes to match her coat....I wondered if her
>eyes were going to change to a different shade of grey or
>blue eventually too. Will be interesting to see answers
>regarding this..... :)

Update!!!

Sylver is just shy of a year old and her eyes have not changed color..they are the same steel blue they were when she was tiny.
:)

[jpy]

Asked..and answered<G>here ya go: addition of dilutes.
============================================
K9 EYE COLOR (Non/semi-technical explanation)
==========================================
Three alleles for eye pigment: Ir, ir^m & ir^y.
Six possible combinations:
Ir/Ir=BK(black-brown or black-velvet eye)
Ir/ir^m=Dk(dark-brown eye)
Ir/ir^y=M1(medium-brown eye-heterozygous)
NOTE: Some would argue that this medium brown
eye of the heterozygote would be less stable a
color and some claim it's lighter than the true
breeding M2. And the below color descriptions are
not exact. Intended only as a guide of comparision.
And note below--the outcome when bred is different.
ir^m/ir^m=M2(medium-brown eye-homozygous)
ir^m/ir^y=ML(medium-light eye)
ir^y/ir^y=L(light eye)

True blue eyes are a seperate phenomenon. Smokey
blue eyes are typical of young puppies & the color "clears"
to the adult shade by around three months typically. True
blue eyes are obvious pale & clear blue from the moment
the puppy opens its eyes. This effect in dogs is associated
with white coats. What the colors might translate to in the
eyes (irises) of dilute (blue, red, etc.) dogs listed below the
21 mating combinations.

21 mating combinations:
Bk x Bk=all Bk
If you breed black-velvet eyes, you get nothing but black-brown eyes.
Bk x Dr=1Bk:1Dk
If you breed black-velvet to dark brown, get 1/2 each shade.
Bk x M1=1Bk:1M
Breed black to medium eyes of the hybrid form (carries
for yellow), you get 1/2 like the black & half like the medium.
Bk x M2=all Dk
Breed black to the medium eye that is prepotent, you get
all dark eyes--not as black as the black eyed parent, but
all darker than the dark-eyed parent.
Bk x ML=1Dk:1M
Breed black eyes to medium light & get ALL darker than
the medium-light-eyed dog. Some medium, some dark brown.
(But none black-velvet.)
Bk x L=all M
Breed the black eyed dog to a light eyed bitch & get all a warm
coffee (medium) eye.
Dk x Dk=all Dk
Breed that dark brown eye to the same; all dark brown
Dk x M1=1Bk:1Dk:1M:1ML
Breed dark brown to medium of hybrid type & get some
of everything--Black eyes, Dark eyes, Medium eyes & one
even lighter than medium.
Dk x M2=1Dk:1ML
Breed dark brown to the prepotent medium brown & half
the litter is darker than medium (but not really black).
Dk x ML=1Dk:2M:1ML
Breed dark brown to a medium-light eye & get one
actually dark for two medium-dark and one medium light
like the lighter eyed parent--3 of four are better therefore.
Dk x L=1M:1ML
Breed dark brown to light and half are medium brown,
half are medium-light--none are yellow, if none dark brown.
M1 x M1=1BK:2M:1L
Breed two hybrid medium browns & you get the weird split
again---I actually BLACK eyed, two medium-dark & one
bird of prey eye. (That's how you know it's a hybrid.)
M1 x M2=1Dk:1ML
Breed that hybrid brown to a true (prepotent) medium brown
& you get one dark for every medium eye. NO light yellow &
no black-brown. Compare this with the one directly above.
M1 x ML=1Dk:1M:1ML:1L
Breed this hybrid brown to med-light--agin the weird split.
You get one really dark eye for one really light eye & two in the
middle, a sort of medium brown.
M1 x L=1M:1L
Breed that hybrid medium brown to a light eye & you get
half medium & half light.
M2 x M2=all M
Breed two true medium brown eyes & all are the same.
M2 xML=1M:1ML
Breed that true (prepotent) medium brown to a ligher eye
& half the litter is ligher than the darker parent.
M2 x L=all ML
BReed that true medium brown to the light eye and ALL
are lighter than one parent but darker than the other.
ML x ML=1 M:2 ML:1 L
Breed two medium light eyes. Since they are hybrids, you
get the split--one with darker, one with lighter, for every
two like the parents.
ML x L= 1ML:1L
Breed medium light to yellow(light) & you get a 50/50 split.
L x L=all L
Light to light gives you all bird of prey eyes.

IN DILUTE DOGS THESE COLORS WOULD BE
DESCRIBED SOMETHING LIKE:
(NOTE: All these color descriptions are inexact and intended
mostly for comparison. What these colors might translate to
in the eyes of dilute (blue, red, etc.) dogs listed below.)
Ir/Ir=BK(black-brown or black-velvet eye)
becomes in a blue dilute dog a chocolate color.
becomes in a red dilute dog a dark cinnamon.
becomes in a double dilute a clear coffee.
Ir/ir^m=Dk(dark-brown eye)
becomes in a blue dilute dog a khaki-grey/brown color.
becomes in a red dilute dog a red cinnabar.
becomes in a double dilute a hazel.
Ir/ir^y=M1(medium-brown eye-heterozygous)
becomes in a blue dilute dog an amber eye.
becomes in a red dilute dog a hazel eye.
becomes in a double dilute an amber eye.
ir^m/ir^m=M2(medium-brown eye-homozygous)
becomes in a blue dilute dog an amber eye.
becomes in a red dilute dog a hazel eye.
becomes in a double dilute a yellow eye.
ir^m/ir^y=ML(medium-light eye)
becomes in a blue dilute dog a yellow eye.
becomes in a red dilute dog a yellow eye.
becomes in a double dilute a "clear" (pale) eye.
ir^y/ir^y=L(light eye)
becomes in most all dilutes dog a "clear"-coke bottle
sort of light green (maybe even called blue?) eye, as
so little pigment is now left, the eye isn't even able to
appear yellow anymore. There is in fact a sort of
"multi" dilute cream dog (Dondo/Cornaz) who may
end up with blue eyes from this sort of effect.


Note 21 combos are possible here: so lots and lots of
variation expected! For example, look at all the matings
where dark-eyed dogs will produce lighter eyes, & where
you see dark eyes coming from lighter eyed parents.
The dilution shades are the best I could come up with.
Additions, corrections and better suggestions sought!
Best in general to use reference shades for comparison
(dark, med. lite) if trying for control & trying to keep accurate
breeding records, rather than try to describe each shade?
Permission to reproduce (when entire & for educational
purposes) granted. Willis, O'Sullivan, Klinckmann,
Chopson, Robinson, Scaible, et al used as resources.
regards.
jp&the chroma-crew: that crazy 3-ring DaneMania.
CHROMADANE
*multi-titled/certified harlequin family danes*
http://www.flash.net/~dby/
**SOUND, SANE & DANEY**
================================================== ====

[PeverettandPhoenix]

I mainly wanted to say that I LOVE YOUR BABY!
She is so pretty and looks like our Peverett! He had blue eyes until he was about 4 months and then they started to change. Now at 18 months they are almost a khaki color.