need some advice on breeding

[CodysMom]

My Cody is a brindle male and he is currently 13 months old. He comes from a background with show dogs and a few champions. They are all fawn and brindle, ofcourse. I have not yet had him neutered. I have a moral problem:

My aunt has a black female, Molly, that is a few months younger than Cody. She purchased her from a "backyard breeder" for approximately $400. Her pedigree shows brindle, fawn, harlequin, and black - in the last 5 generations. My aunt wants to breed Molly and Cody. I have been reading a lot of breeders websites about the way they breed and why they breed. I have a bad feeling about breeding them because of the things I read about people trying to better the breed and I don't feel like Molly would help towards that cause. On the other hand, my aunt really wants to have a puppy from their breeding and she knows that she won't be getting "show quality" great danes from them. She doesn't want to sell them for much, she wants to do it mostly to keep one for herself. I feel like doing this just once wouldn't be a big deal... but then I worry about the welfare of the puppies. I don't think my aunt will take much care to check out the potential buyers of the puppies. I guess that in my heart I don't feel like this is a good idea but I feel bad telling my aunt no.

I would just like anyone and everyone's thoughts on this issue.
Thank you.

Melissa
check out Cody: www.geocities.com/misr0sie

[Sharky]

Stick with your gut reaction........

[littlmrs]

Doing this breeding even once is a very big deal. Raising a litter can cost thousands (think if the bitch needs a C-section, antibiotics, a stay at the vet's office). Then there's puppy wormings, vaccinations, crops, vet visits. Not to mention the fact that the bitch could die. It happens. It is nothing to be taken lightly.

Please do not do this breeding. You say you feel bad telling your Aunt no. . . what you should feel bad about (and I think your intuition is telling you the right thing) are those puppies who will not be all that a great dane should be. . . probably health or conformation wise. Also, they must be placed in good homes. Screening homes takes alot of time and selling the puppies for "not much" increases the chances that they will go to homes of people that can't really afford a great dane or may get one on a passing whim.

Also, the fact that your Cody has "show dogs in his bloodline and a few Champions" does NOT, and I repeat, DOES NOT mean that he is a good candidate to be bred either. Besides the fact that I'm assuming neither of these dogs have the proper health testing done (again, hundreds of dollars invested for each dog), there are many finished Champions who themselves are not good candidates for being bred. If not every Champion should be bred, then how much more so non-champions (in general).

Please do the responsible thing and neuter your boy. He may be a wonderful dog, and I'm sure he is, but to breed him would be to bring into the world a whole litter of puppies that could only end up in rescue or plagued with health problems. Follow your gut feeling and tell your Aunt no. And it's not just because of her dog, either. It doesn't sound like either is a good breeding candidate.

Amanda

[JennyLynn]

Also, please try to educate you Aunt (in a nice way) on why you don't feel good about breeding. Maybe print this thread out and give it to her to read~~that way she can see all of the reasons why it'd be a bad idea, and she may change her mind and get her girl spayed.

[Zoeys Mom]

Please show this to your aunt....

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/woodhaven/breeder2.html

[Carolyn]

<<I guess that in my heart I don't feel like this is a good idea but I feel bad telling my aunt no.>>

I can totally understand what your saying, as telling a family member no is not an easy thing to do, and I'm sure you are not wanting to cause hurt feeling or a strained future relationship.
I would be very honest with your aunt and tell her that your boy is way to young to be bred (as is her bitch), as you will only breed him after he has his genetic testing done and that cant be done until he is 2yrs old. You surely dont want to tell her that your boy is breed quality and hers isnt (as who is to say that either is or isnt without them being shown to prove by unbiased judging which one is or isnt breed quality).
Than you have time to decide if keeping your boy intact is the best thing for him. If you dont plan on showing him, or doing all the things expected prior to even consider breeding, having him neutered would be the your best alternative. Than surely your aunt wont be tempted to breed out of convenience.
I will tell you something though, if you go through with showing, testing, studying pedigrees and educating yourself about all the pros and cons to breeding you will never breed your boy to someone who doesnt also hold these standards for his future mate. Armed with this knowledge makes a person very careful.
Make decisions with your head, not your heart and dont be afraid to stand up for what is important to you and what you are responsible for, which in this case, is your boy and his semen.
Carolyn
Divine Acres Great Danes

[Pauline301]

Carolyn: Very well Said.

Linda, Dave, Jesse And Kitties, Cassie, Pekoe and Emma

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?username=yuccabean :-(

Website: http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/yuccabean/personal1.html

[Tracytj]

I send this article to anybody that wants to breed...Thank you for writing it, Laura at Woodhaven Labs!!

Tracy

[Bev_K]

Hi Melissa,

I do understand your position. Maybe this will help you discuss things with your aunt...

The "one time" breeding:

Let's say you have 8 puppies. For ease in math, let's say half of them are bred (just once, mind you!) and produce 8 puppies each. That would be 32 more puppies. Now, half of those pups are bred - (just once!), that would now be 128 puppies. Now, half of this new generation is bred (just once!) to produce 512. So, if we add up all the pups produced from this "one time" breeding, there is a total of 680 in just four short generations.

What if the parents of the original litter of eight passed on structural or health problems? Sure, the dogs might appear healthy on the day of the breeding, but what if they start exhibiting signs of a genetic disease a short while later? or, what if they are only carriers of the problem, so while it was never expressed in them, their pups end up with a problem? Each generation we're going to probably get further away from the standard because both mates aren't exceptional examples of the breed. Maybe that fourth generation will be lucky if they remotely resemble a Dane?

Sure, that's the worse case scenario, but it is realistic. The truth is that 80% of AKC registered dogs are produced from "one-time" breeders. So, even a one time breeding will have an impact on the breed you love. It will also have an impact on pet overpopulation.

Of course, there are the other details associated with breeding - the raising and caring for the litter, screening new homes, and even taking back pups that the owners can't keep (when the dog is two years old and completely untrained). The owner of the sire is just as responsible for those lives as the owner of the dam. Please try to politely educate your aunt and explain your reasons as to why you choose not to breed your boy. Maybe if she sees you making unselfish and educated decisions, she will be able to make the same and spay her girl.

The best contribution to a breed is often knowing when NOT to breed.

Best of luck,
Bev

[CodysMom]

Thank you everyone for your input. I know that I don't want to do it and for all of the reasons that you all gave. I guess I just needed some other people that are knowledgable about the breed to confirm my decision. I will definatly not be doing this breeding.

Thank You All.

Melissa
check out Cody: www.geocities.com/misr0sie

[Mommy to Zeus]

Hi Melissa, I think you are making the wisest decision about this breeding! Kudos to you!

Now, I just want to add my story. I rescued a boxer/english bulldog mix. She was approx. one year old when we adopted her. We were told by the rescue people that she was spayed. We believed them. Not long thereafter, we rescued a boxer/mastiff mix who was not neutered. Believing that Becca was already spayed, we were in no hurry to rush the neutering appointment for Dozer. We set up the neutering appointment for 2 weeks after Dozer came home. Well, to our suprise, the supposedly spayed Becca came into heat! We tried our best to keep them separated, but somehow, someway, they mated (keeping an uneutered male away from a female in season seems to take some kind of superpower).

I was so dissapointed. I should have had the vet give Becca the shot to make her abort, but I didn't feel comfortable killing the puppies. Little did I know at that time I was in for the most expensive 4 months of my life thus far....way more expensive than my college expenses for a semester.

During her pregnancy, Becca was on a special diet. She went to the vet every 2 weeks for checkups. Her x-ray showed 12 puppies in there! The 2 months of her pregnancy were expensive! I had to make sure I had enough money saved in case she needed a C-section, as most english bulldogs have to have C-sections and Becca is half english bulldog.

We had to buy the material for the whelping box. When the time came and she went into labor, I was a nervous wreck....I had never whelped a litter of pups before. I had read and read and read about how to do it, but I had also read alot of horror stories about whelping. Well, she was in labor for about 24 hours. During that time 11 puppies were born. All were alive and healthy except one...the tiniest runt. Well, we were concerned because the x-ray had showed 12 puppies...so it was off to the vet to make sure there wasn't another puppy stuck in there...there wasn't.

Now, we kept those puppies until they were 10 weeks old. There was 3 trips to the emergency vet during those 10 weeks, not to mention the routine vet care every other week. There was shots, wormings, and food. We screened homes. Many potential puppy buyers walked away from us because they felt our guidelines for adoption were too strict. I said to them GOOD RIDDANCE! Many people didn't appreciate that I was "selling" them all on spay/neuter contracts, with half of the purchase price returned to the owner upon proof of spay/neuter. I even had one guy asking if were fighters! UGH! Anyway, long story short, after calculating all the expenses of Becca's pregnancy and raising those pups to 10 weeks, we had spent over $2,000...on an accidental litter! We "sold" the pups for $100 each, but every single owner returned with spay/neuter proof and we gave each owner $50 back. Breeding is a serious endeavor. I wish I had known that Becca was not spayed. The next female dog I get, I will ask the vet upon getting her if she is already spayed or not...that's for sure.

[Mstres1127]

I'll keep this brief, but go with ur gut and do not breed!! if u read any of my posts of late in this area, u will see just what can happen from a breeding just like this one u have thought of. I Thank the Lord that only 3 pups were born are in good homes and are altered, but I now live with knowing that my dog is dieing from DCM and his pups are more likely than not affected with this disease and have shorter lives now.... I only bred cuz I wanted one of my dogs pups also and it has been a nightmare for all.

Stick to ur guns, and letting breeding to the BREEDERS!!!!

Melissa, Deebo & Banny

[XcelDanes]

Along with what everyone has said and your gut feeling JUST SAY NO is the right thing to do also is your dog on full reg.or do you have a nueter contract?You said he came from show danes hes probaly got a contract to be nuetered and you wont have breeding rights.If hes on limited explain that to your aunt that he is not to be bred and you can be sued if he is.


Lisa Mcintosh
http://xceldanes.com/index.html

[Pauline301]

Just noticed this post is over a year old.

"Acquiring a dog may be the only opportunity a human ever has to choose a relative." – Mordecai Siegal
Linda, Dave, Jesse, and Kitties, Cassie, Pekoe and Emma http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/yuccabean/minicatwindow.gif
WEBSITE:
http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/yuccabean/personal.html
DOL PHOTO GALLERY:
http://www.gdohosting.com/dolforum/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=7

[empm]

Still... good questions, good responses, food for thought. If someone hadn't brought it up the way they did, and others hadn't responded the way they did, I wouldn't have gotten to read and think about it. Thanks everybody.:)

[Douja1009]

DONT DO IT...YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HEALTH DEFECTS COULD LIE BEHIND BOTH OF YOUR DOGS. THERES ALREADY ENOUGH PUPPIES AND ADULT DANES THAT NEED HOMES THAT ARE SITTING IN RESCUES AND SHELTERS RIGHT NOW. BESIDES, IF SHES YOUNGER THEN YOUR BOY, YOU HAVE 18 MONTHS TO TWO YEARS TOO WAIT BEFORE ANYTHING COULD BE DONE. JUST DONT DO IT.