"Line Breeding"

[jamesspader]

I was just wondering what people's feelings on inbreeding are, or as the professionals say "Line Breeding". I put it in quotes because by any ordinary use of the word, when a dog is bred to its grand-daughter, or half-sister, the puppies are INBRED. Being inbred for humans isn't the narrow definition that it is for dog breeders (only parent to child and full sibling breedings). The semantic game really isn't important though, as human social taboos don't really apply to dogs, plus dogs are just plain different genetically than humans. I've noticed that a whole lot of breeders do line breed, especially in Danes.
My own view is that "if done right", line-breeding probably makes sense, and wolves certainly must be doing it now and have done so for thousands of years, just going off the way pack life is and the way their societies work. What I mean is that I don't think it would be at all uncommon for an alpha male wolf to breed back to his granddaughter and even daughter (technically inbreeding, not line-breeding). Furthermore, wolves must have adapted genetically to this social structure in such a way as to make incestuous pairings beneficial to the species. Or is it the other way around? (i.e. the social structure evolved around the genetic benefits of inbreeding/line-breeding).

My concern is that breeders trying to produce "pretty dogs" for use in the show ring will do whatever is the "easiest" to make pretty dogs that become champions, perhaps without regard to temperament, intelligence, and longevity. It seems to me that line-breeding can be a "safe bet" for breeders with related dogs, since the genetic overlap will mean a more certain outcome, i.e. pups that look more like the parents, with less chance of hidden traits popping up. But sometimes what you see isn't always what you get.

I realize this is a pretty scatter-brained post that's kind of all over the place, but does anyone have any comments on what I said or on line-breeding in general?

[anne]

James, FYI you really only need to post a question in one place. (I replied to this question under Health & Welfare.) Have you tried the "mark" feature? If you activate it on your preferences, you can go to "read new" - and read all recent posts, then hit "mark all" and next time you log in, only threads with new posts will show up. It's a great way to immediately find the active threads and see what people have said since you last visited.

Cheers~

[Ellen]

Had some of the same questions myself when getting ready to purchase my pup. Asked my breeder and her response was that she would not have a waiting list, good rep. and many champions in her line if her dogs were not correct both in temperament and conformation. She also has a record of longevity in her lines with photos and recognitions to back it up. Her sire and dam (on outcrossings as well as linebreeding) are both chosen with these things in mind. She only linebreeds her best of the best in order to fix traits and would never "fix" just for conformation alone as that would defeat the purpose. She wants to continue with a great line and to fix a bad temperament or health issue, etc. would ruin the line. Hope this helps you...it did me:)

[gmac]

FWIW, showing isn't all about being "pretty". A dog with a flakey temperament surely could not withstand the rigors of being a show dog. Judges aren't as dense as you must think.

[dedane24]

What I got from talking to breeders wasnt that they line breed out of convience just that say the grandmother had a beatiful head and somwhere between bringing in another dog they lost it they might ad that grandmom back in to bring back the head.

[jamesspader]

Actually, I don't think judges are dense. The system is dense.

Just because a dog can win at shows doesn't mean he can DO anything. Set one of your pretty, primped prancers loose in a field, and there's a good chance he won't be able to tell the difference between his butt and a hole in the ground, running away from a snarling raccoon with his tale between his legs, then making his way to the nearest highway to charge a semi.

With all the haughty talk about which dogs can and can't be bred, you rarely see any mention that this great breeding dog has completed any agility feats, or even knows how to run unleashed without a handler trotting in front of him. I'm sorry but you CAN be pretty damn "flakey" and still have that MINIMAL intelligence necessary to trot around a ring and stand still when a judge comes by -- how impressive those feats are!

Lest we remember that the Dane was once a cunning hunter. Apparently all that matters now is that he look as if he could be. Keep it up and our breed will become as useful as one of those little fluff-balls grandma uses to warm her lap, a "dog" which hardly resembles what it came from, almost completely devoid of any of the instincts of his forbears.


- Jimmy (NOT against showing, just against making it the touchstone of a dog's worth)

[jensdanes]

Just read this thread...all I can say is, you are gonna get SO BASHED for your opinion, but I have to say I agree with you. I talk to so many breeders who require that they will sell to "show homes only" My reply is, I will show him to everyone who I meet in my many travels with him. He is the most well behaved and well socialized dog for many, many miles. That is in my opinion, MORE important than wether he has the capacity to stand still in the show ring...of course he would stand still! I met Danes at the dog park in NYC this weekend that weren't friendly to larger dogs or children...I bet they could trot around and stand still though! I hope that wether a Dane can place in the ring isn't the main measure of the dogs worth, if it is, that's very sad for the owner and the dog.

[Bev_K]

...how many shows have you been to? ...how many dogs have you shown? ...how many shows have you volunteered at?

You're sure entitled to your opinion...but why don't you form them from experience? Just a suggestion. :7

Bev

[dina]

This attitute above is fine for someone who has a pet only dog. There are certainly many more fun & interesting things you can do with your pet (non breeding dog). See the list next paragraph :). The point of the conformation show ring is to evalaute breeding stock. This is where serious breeders put their money where their mouth is and bring the dogs they are breeding into the public eye. They get the opinion of the judge and the dog is veiwed by their peers. Why would you not want to bring the dogs you are breeding out in public (unless you were breeding poor quality dogs & did not want to be told so???)

While one can say that winning at a conformation show does not guarantee that a dog is breeding quality, neither does leaving your dog at home. Although the latter certainly leaves much more room for claims that cannot be substantiated! Easy to say a dog is healthy, sweet, and beautiful if no one ever sees it but you, hmmm? It is interesting how so few of those who claim that conformation "show" dogs are just "pretty" and must be stupid, sick, bad tempered, or unsound are actually involved in any performance sports or other public activities themselves which would back up their claims of great temperment, intelligence, great health, and soundness. And if they were they would surely be surprised how many of those beautiful show dogs are actually out there "working" in their spare time (doing obedience, agility, tracking, weight pulling, carting, search and rescue, animal assisted therapy, etc.)

In regard to the original thread topic, if the original poster seriously wants to learn more about line breeding, why not purchase one of the many books available on breeding, or go to a seminar? There are many ways to gain actual knowledge about a subject (if thats what you're interested in) besides posting on a public message board which anyone can respond to & say anything they want. Or was the motive for this thread really just to spout your own opinions & justify your own practices?

I agree with Bev, actual experience leads to much more intelligent opinions. :7

Dina
Scoobie, Rosie, Picabo & Gui
Gui's page
http://www.flash.net/~dby/Guidon.htm
Great Dane Rescue of the Southwest
http://www.angelfire.com/anime/gdrsw/index.html

[Ellen]

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

[jamesspader]

I find it ironic that those attacking my opinions advocate not making decisions about things without knowledge/experience, yet without knowing a single thing about me have assumed me away as someone with no experience owning, breeding, or showing dogs. They would be correct in assuming that I have never been a "breeder". In case these dissenters are still interested, and really do desire some knowledge BEFORE forming an opinion, here's a little about myself.

I grew up on a farm. My family has gone through too many dogs for me to name. Hunting dogs, show dogs, and just plain friendly muts have graced my presence for my entire life. My father had many Red Bones over the years, which are some of the most amazing animals I've ever had the honor of knowing, along with two English Setters which he and I trained to be quite fine bird dogs. I've been to probably 50 dogs shows all in all, mostly when I was young, dragged along by my mother along with her menagerie of mainly puffy pooches. One of my favorites was "Colonel", a Llasa who was a Champion (one of several of my mother's champions) before he was two, shown only at big shows. I think he was the most beautiful Llasa I've ever seen, but then again I AM biased. Then again, who isn't? Apparently some others in the "public" thought so too.

I never really took a shine to showing because I had seen what dogs are capable of, a hound sniffing out a coon in the rain from a mile away, a setter freezing in midstep to point a covey of quail, ... these were impressive dogs. "Conformation classes" do have a purpose. I have never disputed that despite the assertions in the post to which I am responding. That purpose, however, is no more than to see which dogs look better than others. How can that be disputed? Dog shows ARE beauty contests.

The above comments are my opinion, and are certainly up for debate. I don't know that there really is a right answer to "which is more important ... conformation, intelligence, ...?" I would assert that they are all important, a point which I don't believe is up for debate either. If they are all important, they must all be evaluated. Dog shows are a way of evaluating conformation, looks, or prettiness. They don't tell the whole story. THAT'S ALL I'M TRYING TO SAY.

Finally, to dispel the last assumption, I do have my first Great Dane, who is about four months, and I WILL SHOW HIM. Up to this point everything I've said is just for the sake of argument, but now I feel I should address the anger which I feel when someone insinuates that my dog's only value is "in my own eyes", that I'm too scared to present him to the public, and that he really could never accomplish anything anyway. He comes from quite esteemed bloodlines, and I'll just say that we'll have to see what becomes of him... I do know this, B.I.S. Champion or not, Champion or not, that accomplishment (if attained) will be quite near the bottom of his listing of accomplishments. And yes, I am a "pet owner", and proud that my dog will always be a pet, regardless of what he does.

[alicat613]

>Set one of your pretty, primped prancers loose in
>a field, and there's a good chance he won't be able to tell
>the difference between his butt and a hole in the ground,
>running away from a snarling raccoon with his tale between
>his legs, then making his way to the nearest highway to
>charge a semi.

Well I would think running away from a snarling raccoon would be smart, although since my dog had a raccoon with him as a pup, who knows what he'd do!
I'm most impressed though that these pretty prancers you know are capable of writing a story to tuck between their legs! :7


>Lest we remember that the Dane was once a cunning hunter.
>Apparently all that matters now is that he look as if he
>could be. Keep it up and our breed will become as useful as
>one of those little fluff-balls grandma uses to warm her
>lap, a "dog" which hardly resembles what it came from,
>almost completely devoid of any of the instincts of his
>forbears.

I've been astounded by my dog's genetic inclinations toward his hunting past. He takes his toys and other things in play, and will hold them down just as they were taught to hold down the boars! Pretty neat!! And yes, my dog comes from one of those "pretty prancer" families.

Any breeder I would choose to get a dog from would have to do other things beyond showing. Parker's breeder does numerous activities with her dogs, as do most of the reputable breeders that I know, from obedience to tracking to agility. Did you know that Coral, the girl on the Eukanuba Portland show, has her TDX?

I agree that conformation titles should not be the definitive statement on a dogs worthiness to be bred. There is so much more involved, and I'm not sure why you think that reputable breeders only look at conformation.

As for showing however, I recently found out just how hard it is!
Parker and I took part in a fun match yesterday, and oh boy...well that's another post of its own!

Alisha & Parker

[Bev_K]

Who has "attacked" any of your opinions? I certainly agree you're on the defense, but I've seen no one take near the tone or attitude that I've read in your posts.

Try reading every post thinking of the writer with a smile on their face trying to offer friendly advice/ideas/thoughts. :7

Optimism can be refreshing!

Bev

[kwhit]

IMO, there should be more than a championship title in front of a dogs name for that dog to qualify as a breeding animal. I believe people should look for many other attributes when researching breeders and their dogs. I would put much more value in a dog that also has a CGC award, or one that has qualified to be a therapy dog, tracking dog, obedience champion, or titled in utility, thus proving brains and stability of temperament as well as conforming to the standard of our breed. I know of a harlequin stud that is probably in the majority of pedigrees and, of course, he is a "champion". He also almost took my sister's friends daughter's head off, NO provocation, (it was at the kennel, only my sister and her friend saw. And of course the breeder, how convenient). Very, very aggressive attitude! Yes, he stands for the judge in the ring, and yes, he tolerates his teeth being looked at, but he is still, at times, an aggressive dog. This was not the first time I have heard of him being hostile. I told a friend about it, who is very involved in showing, and she said, "Yeah, I've heard that too." This is a VERY, VERY WELL KNOWN kennel and dog. I guess because he is so stunning, he will continue to be used as a stud, I'm sure that other people know, they must. But he throws gorgeous pups, so why not, right?!? Unbelievable to me! So, yes, I agree, the title of champion in front of a dogs name does not mean that he/she should be bred, unless, and this is what I will be looking for the next time I buy a puppy, that name is also followed by a few of the above mentioned titles as well. My last dane came from champions, and I mean every single dog in her pedigree, from at least 5 generations back, (except one), was a champion. She had the worst temperament of any dane I have ever owned. She was extremely shy and I had to watch her constantly around my daughter. When I researched the line, after I bought her, (I know, a mistake), to determine if this was commonplace with her line, I found out that a few in her line were also fearful and extremely shy. I had also heard that they had "barely made their ch. titles". I guess I should have researched further before buying, but I felt that the breeder was very involved with her dogs and very active in showing, so I felt comfortable with my choice. And according to the many posts I've since read here, I followed the correct protocol. The breeder I dealt with did health testing, she consistently shows, she has a mentor, (a very popular breeder with a well respected kennel), she is extremely knowlegeble about Danes, etc. So what went wrong? I know that none of the dogs in her line were therapy dogs, they did not acheive their CGC awards and only a couple had obedience titles. But they were and still are absolutely drop dead georgeous animals that conform to the standard of our breed to almost perfection. Is that enough? No, not for me, not anymore! The next time I buy a puppy, show me one of the parents lying down with a child beside them with the child's arms around the dog's neck, and the dog loving it. Or show me a picture of one of the parents on a therapy visit, with their head in the lap of a senior citizen allowing that person to feel the love of a dog once again. Show me an obedience title, tracking title or if they're search and rescue certified. Anything to prove to me that there is a brain in that beautiful head, and also a rock solid temperament. And yes, also the Ch. before their name, but NEVER ONLY a Ch. title, not anymore. Too much to ask? Well, if it is, then I guess I won't be getting another Dane for a long, long time. JMO :)

[rachel]

hmm, interesting!

We are 'pet' owners in that we don't intend to breed from Mia (neither myself as owner nor my breeder as co-owner). We are also a 'show' home in that we show Mia locally. So for us the conformation ring is not solely about breed stock evaluation, although I agree that is mainly what it is used for (I firmly believe that only champions should be bred). For us the show ring is about the 'betterment of the breed', i.e. the better the specimen according to the standard, the more it ought to be shown. Regardless of whether the owner is willing or capable of breeding from their dogs, the good examples of the breed standard should be out there being shown, and should be winning at that.

To me the breed standard, against which the dog is judged in the ring (and ought to be judged against, amongst many other considerations, in terms of breeding also), ought to cover temperament, and ought to reflect what the breed was/is intended to 'do'. And conformation showing involves judging to that standard. Sometimes it seems as though we all (judges included) have different opinions as to what the words in the standard mean.

All of which points to getting to know, and trusting, your breeder and their lines. Full stop ('period' for Americans). I'm sorry but I cannot imagine buying a dog solely based on CHs in their lines. Those CHs ought to mean a lot, but that's nothing compared to what getting to know people and their dogs means. Mia's pedigree is full of CHs (in fact I think they all are CHs). But that's nothing compared to getting to know her breeder and her dogs and the way they are at home. I'm not saying dogs without CHships should be bred, I'm saying that out of two litters, both with full pedigrees of CHs, I would buy a puppy from the person I trusted and whose dogs I admired and loved at home as well as at a show. Put bluntly, the person whose dogs most conformed to my definition of the standard in temperament as well as looks!

I leave the breeding decisions up to the experts (I wouldn't buy a puppy from people I felt made the wrong decisions, but it would take quite a lot for someone to convince me a *trusted* breeder was making a wrong one in terms of 'line/in breeding').

Have you ever watched a dog in the ring and found yourself involuntarily murmuring lines from the breed standard? That's what dog showing is about to me. To me breed standards are why we have purebred dogs.

JMO.

[mp]

The number of champions in the pedigree did not create the temperament problems. It was the breeder's decision to breed these dogs with shakey temperaments and keep breeding that caused the problem. The number of championships and health tests are a starting point in puppy selection. Asking around at shows what particular lines are known for is a good way to highlight the positives and shake out the negatives on different kennels. mp

[jamesspader]

<<...how many shows have you been to? ...how many dogs have you shown? ...how many shows have you volunteered at?
You're sure entitled to your opinion...but why don't you form them from experience? Just a suggestion.

Bev>>

Bev, Who was attacked my opinions? You have. After your set of rhetorical questions, you "suggest" that I form my opinions from experience. I described my background in order that you might have some "experience" with it before forming your own opinions about me. As to the post I responded to "on the defensive" as you say, that post said that I might form "more intelligent opinions". The author not only disagreed with my opinions but stated that they WERE NOT INTELLIGENT. That seems to me to be an attack.

[jamesspader]

>I'm most impressed though that these pretty prancers you
>know are capable of writing a story to tuck between their
>legs! :7


What does that mean?

[Bev_K]

>Bev, Who was attacked my opinions? You have.

My comment was in direct reply to the post to which I replied. Settle down. The whole world isn't out to get you.

Bev

[mp]

You had typed "tale" instead of "tail" between the legs, making an inadvertant funny! mp

[jamesspader]

Oh, that's pretty funny. I like that.

[WDM]

Jimmy Wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just because a dog can win at shows doesn't mean he can DO anything. Set one of your pretty, primped prancers loose in a field, and there's a good chance he won't be able to tell the difference between his butt and a hole in the ground, running away from a snarling raccoon with his tale between his legs, then making his way to the nearest highway to charge a semi.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If it would enhance your view of "pretty primped prancers", my champion female dane once tore the eyeball out of a Shih Tzu that attacked her. She had been harassed by this dog for some time and had enough. The little dog had escaped from an open door at it's owner's house and came to our place, barking at the door. Our charming little champion blasted out of the door and grabbed that little dog and had every intention of killing it immediately. My wife and I were right behind her and managed to get her to drop the Shih Tzu and it took off for home. We followed and found that the eye was completely out of the socket. The little dog was not at all bothered by this fact and the owner took it to a vet and had the eye removed and the socket sewn shut. The dog was just fine with one eye and you would never know as the hair covered the whole face. The owner bragged that his little dog took on two full grown danes and survived. I didn't mention that my 170 pound male was right behind Geisha and after we got Geisha to drop the dog, he grabbed it and shook it a few times too before dropping it. I don't think he hurt it though. Perhaps it was because, although he had been shown for two years, he did not have any points. <G> <BTW> All of my danes are line bred and my present male, (not the one in the above incident) is inbred to his dam. Any breeder that knows what they are doing will make temperament and health a priority and conformation showing is just a part of choosing an animal for breeding. In point of fact there are a number of danes that compete in other areas too. There are danes that do well in agility, obedience, and even tracking. Bear in mind that danes are long removed from their original roots as working dogs. Danes, as are most other dogs, are companion dogs and are not bred to do the jobs they were originally intended to do. Actually I believe that danes were last employed, to any extent, as cart pulling dogs in Europe. Your point is valid, to some extent, about the capabilities of dogs shown in conformation. Generally speaking, breeds such as those in the sporting group are not bred for their hunting skills. There ARE some that do well in the field as well as the ring but that is not the usual priority. Hunting dogs are not commonly shown in conformation as that is not their priority. In as much as form follows function, they often have pretty good conformation though.
Danes, being an extreme breed, requires great diligence to maintain the breed's physical characteristics. The breed's large size, as well as the characteristic dane head is difficult to maintain in breeding. Look at the average BYB dane and you will see that they seldom resemble the carefully bred dane. Head, size, and lip are soon lost in careless breeding. Line breeding is a way to retain these characteristics and to have a reasonable expectation of what you will get in subsequent breedings.


Duane with
Ch. Geisha, Harley and Iris in
Saginaw Michigan
Great Lakes...Great Danes
http://duanemorgan99.tripod.com/DuanesDanes/

[WDM]

Here is a web site that shows what one breeder has been able to do with danes.

http://www.kennelkappadane.com/index.html

Duane with
Ch. Geisha, Harley and Iris in
Saginaw Michigan
Great Lakes...Great Danes
http://duanemorgan99.tripod.com/DuanesDanes/

[Angie]

Before I say what I am going to say. let me make this clear...............I do not condone dog / animal fights.........

I just thought this was too funy when you replied with it



If it would enhance your view of "pretty primped prancers", my champion female dane once tore the eyeball out of a Shih Tzu that attacked her.

It was like enough said........lol Angie

[WDM]

Believe me, it was not funny at the time either. That dog had no idea that it was so much smaller than those hated great danes. As soon as it escaped from it's house, it came running straight for our house to take care of those big, arrogant, dogs once and for all. That dog certainly did not follow the description of the breed.

The Shih-Tzu is a friendly, nonaggressive dog that is a good companion for children and other breeds of dogs.

In truth Geisha was quite happy to take on that little dog as it was not the first time that one of those little fuzzballs had annoyed her. Most others had the good sense to keep out of her range though.
An even funnier story happened a number of years ago with my brindle dane, Simba. This was also while we were at our cottage and the first incident occured on the 4th of July. We were walking along one of the roads in the area when a small white ball of fur came running from it's yard and up to Simba. He just stood there looking at this little dog as it proceeded to start chewing on Simba's front leg. Simba looked in disbelief and picked up his leg and shook it and the little dog did a flip in the air and took off running back to it's yard. We continued the walk without further inident. Exactly one year later, on the 4th of July, we were walking along the same road and the same little dog came running at Simba. This time he was ready. As the dog got to him Simba bent over and, very close but without actually touching him, growled and barked at him. I can't describe in words the sound but it impressed that little dog enough that it did a back flip and hit the ground running and went kiyiing all the way back to it's home. As it went running by the owner, who was in the yard, he said, "That should teach you a lesson". Now THAT was funny!

Duane with
Ch. Geisha, Harley and Iris in
Saginaw Michigan
Great Lakes...Great Danes
http://duanemorgan99.tripod.com/DuanesDanes/

[jamesspader]

>
>It was like enough said........lol Angie


Oh yeah, it takes a really fine animal to tear into a dog literally 10 times smaller than it ...

The story might have been worth telling in this context if it were a mastiff, Rottweiller, or a Pit Bull ...

I would be more proud if my dog were GENTLE with small dogs, as almost all good Danes are.

And Alicat, this one's for you: proud of a dog for running tail between its legs from a coon? Pathetic behavior for the Apollo of Dogs. The Dane's ancestors hunted BOARS. Ever seen a Boar? It's lot scarier than a raccoon. Also, take a look at the Great Dane Standard:

"Temperament

The Great Dane must be spirited, courageous, always friendly and dependable, and never timid or aggressive."


How courageous is that? As to the previous point, how friendly and dependable is that?

Which brings me to my next point, if Dog Shows are so well-suited to judging the breed standard, how is a judge supposed to know whether a dog is courageous from watching him prance and stand? The show ring is definately lacking something ... though it does serve a purpose ... If there are other aspects equally important, however, why is a dog's show performance the ONLY ASPECT to be given credit on a pedigree?

Here's an idea, it's common knowledge that the breed is short-lived. Why not put on the pedigree an annotation for dogs living longer than 10 years, which would indicate an above-average lifespan just as the Ch. siginifies above average conformation? In the age of computer records it wouldn't be very difficult. Of course I'm not a politico trying to take over the AKC, so bring on the comments about "not doing anything about it..." I'm just a crazy guy with some weird ideas that all the "experts" on this site will surely refute.

[jensdanes]

I still think you make some valid points "crazy guy"!!!:P

[Michelle L]

Sooooooooooo.......are you suggesting that we release boars in the show ring to see what the contestants can do?

In my opinion, I would much rather have a quiet, loveable, well behaved Dane than a hyperactive, hard to control Dane. Much of the characteristics of the breed that we all love have been bred into them over years of careful selection of breeding stock. This can be attributed to the breeders who *gasp* choose breeding stock based an what happens in the show ring. I do think agility and obedience are also also wonderful additions to the mix, however, I'm not so sure I would even want a Dane that follows his hunting roots closely. I have been around many dogs that come from hunting lineage, and they are usually wound tighter than a spring. That's fine for what they are intended as they have the drive to hunt. However, I can't say I honestly want the same behavior in a Dane, regardless of what his ancestry is. Every dog breed has a history, what it was originally bred to do. Very few breeds actually follow it. After all, who needs to hunt down their dinner nowdays when we have grocery stores? Not me, I just need a Dane to love me.

Michelle

[danemaybe]

wow...i am sure that shih tzu was a real threat to your great danes seeing as they were inside the house and all. :D

[WDM]

Dogs have no sense of fair play. All they saw was a threat and reacted. If you don't think small dogs are agressive you haven't been around them much.

Duane with
Ch. Geisha, Harley and Iris in
Saginaw Michigan
Great Lakes...Great Danes
http://duanemorgan99.tripod.com/DuanesDanes/

[danemaybe]

actually i have been, my dog loves them and i make sure he knows how to play nice (especially with the little dogs in our own neighborhood). i was more refferring to the fact that you said your dogs were INSIDE and this dog was OUTSIDE. how is that a threat?

[HowardsMom]

Wow! I've read this whole thread and I have to say that James has made some good points. As have others. However, I would like to propose another point to evaluate in "grading" a dog: what kind of progeny it produces. There are many beautiful dogs with some pretty bad recessive genes which can damage the entire breed.

I was reading earlier about a recessive kidney gene that can cause the kidneys to fail when the animal is very young. If a dog produces off-spring with this condition, both parents must carry that gene. If either or both parents are CH, that shouldn't really matter, it's not good for the breed to breed either dog again. If conformation, and even performance is what we look at, we still miss another part of the puzzle, maintaining (or if possible, improving) the health of the breed.

On a different note, I am a concerned that some posters think it amusing, or at least acceptable, that a dog would tear out the eye of another, smaller dog. Again with the Irish Wolfhound reference (sorry, but they are my big dog frame of reference), many years ago I had my female IW at an outdoor "fun" show and a min pin walked up to her and bit her on the nose. The IW just looked at the dog, like "how stupid are you?" I was extremely proud that my dog did NOT retaliate in kind.

[danemaybe]

:o :o :o

i totally agree. for dogs this size there is no way they should retaliate like that. what if it was a child that poked the dog in the eye or something? would we be so accepting if the dog attacked?

and bravo to your dog too! :o :o

[MiHi]

"And Alicat, this one's for you: proud of a dog for running
>tail between its legs from a coon? Pathetic behavior for
>the Apollo of Dogs. The Dane's ancestors hunted BOARS. Ever
>seen a Boar? It's lot scarier than a raccoon. Also, take a
>look at the Great Dane Standard:
>
>"Temperament
>
>The Great Dane must be spirited, courageous, always friendly
>and dependable, and never timid or aggressive."

If you were to actually read her post and not jump to conclusions you would read that her dog has never run away from a raccoon as he was raised with them! He also shows prey drive when interacting with his toys. Before you bash her dog, or my breeding read things carefully.

And if you think my Danes are pathetic, why don't you come up to our neck of the woods and put on a decoy suit, Tonka will be more then happy to prove she is way more than a prancing pageant pooch!

Cheers,
Michele

[HKDanes]

>I would be more proud if my dog were GENTLE with small dogs,
>as almost all good Danes are.

I agree wholeheartedly. I know that my big brindle male is constantly puzzled by little dogs who insist on leaping at his face. He just gets this, "Why are you wasting your time?" look and walks on.

>Which brings me to my next point, if Dog Shows are so
>well-suited to judging the breed standard, how is a judge
>supposed to know whether a dog is courageous from watching
>him prance and stand? The show ring is definately lacking
>something ... though it does serve a purpose ... If there
>are other aspects equally important, however, why is a dog's
>show performance the ONLY ASPECT to be given credit on a
>pedigree?

First of all, a Dane should not prance. This is considered incorrect movement.
A Dane is dependable if he lets a stranger, i.e. the judge, examine him. He is friendly and shows his good humor if he can stand ringside in the crowd without reacting to anything. Believe me, I make note of the ones who have to stand in a corner. Shows are a test of temperament.
It seems that you have forgotten that AKC obedience titles, agility titles and tracking titles as well as health clearances are included on AKC certified pedigrees. Other accomplishments will be noted on handwritten pedigrees.
This brings up a point for me. How much time have you invested studying pedigrees, looking at dogs and the paperwork behind them, observing the progression of lines? How many questions have you asked breeders about breeding decisions they have made over the years?

>Here's an idea, it's common knowledge that the breed is
>short-lived. Why not put on the pedigree an annotation for
>dogs living longer than 10 years, which would indicate an
>above-average lifespan just as the Ch. siginifies above
>average conformation?

This information is readily available from any knowledgeable breeder.

Of course I'm not a politico
>trying to take over the AKC, so bring on the comments about
>"not doing anything about it..." I'm just a crazy guy with
>some weird ideas that all the "experts" on this site will
>surely refute.

Nah, you just want to pick a fight for whatever reason. As far as experts? To whom are you referring? I know there are people here that have extensive experience that stand them in good stead. But experts? How can anyone really be an expert? Everyone ought to be in a "constantly learning" mode. Can anyone really know everything? I know that I will not live long enough to even think about knowing everything. Each day only confirms the fact of how much I don't know.
However, there are those who feel they do know everything. I consider them to be "instant experts", a mere flash in the pan, definite wannabes.
My thoughts on linebreeding? I would prefer to stick with the predictable. Occasional outcrosses may be necessary to improve on a point. Ah, but there is the rub. Whom can I trust to give me the correct information? Either there are those who don't know anything and think they do or those who prefer to hide information. Those who are willing to share are few and far between.
So what am I to do? Isn't it safer to continue with the line where I know what is there than risk introducing something that is potentially worse? Then comes the question of what problems can I live with? Every predigree has something lurking there. I am committed to decrease problems rather than increase them. I think the way to do this is with linebreeding. Breeding decisions aren't easy and shouldn't be. The future of the breed depends on it. JMO...Jo

[Carla]

Amen.
This is what I do also. Go to shows/specialties and watch the progression of the lines. Watch the temperaments as they are being shown and standing around. do they stand their like deadheads? Do they attack everything that walks by, do they shy from the judge, do they show confidence, etc. Talk to other breeders about their dogs. IMHO, ONLY those that have no idea about showing say that temperament can't be determined. they don't win if they are scared. They dont' win if they don't act like their breed.

[kwhit]

Carla, you and Jo just opened my eyes along with a light bulb going off in my head!!!:7 I've posted here before that I felt that the conformation ring is not a test for temperament. I still believe that to a point, but, duh!, what happens AROUND the ring is an excellent way to observe the dogs attitude. God, so simple, but I never even thought about it! :'( At the last show I went to, there was a woman who had her Dane in one of the wading pools that were provided to help cool the dogs off, (it was really hot). The dog was having a blast. Playing, splashing, just really enjoying herself. That was a dog that was at ease around a lot of people, I should have introduced myself to her, it would have been a starting point. My last Dane had a less than desireable temperament, although all in her line, all except one, were champions. But I never met her parents or any other dogs in her pedigree, or the breeder for that matter. The breeder was out of state. I know I didn't research enough, and now, as I am just starting my search for a puppy, I will be much more careful in my choice. It's not that the breeder presented her falsely, I just fell in love with her look and bought with my heart instead of my head. :( I take TOTAL resposibility for the choice I made, the breeder had told me how really, really shy she was. I'll know better next time with help from posts like yours and Jo's in what to look for at shows. Thanks so much for your insight!:) I know it will be a very long time for me to select a breeder, (I am REALLY shy at shows, I know I need to come out of my shell and talk to people, but I just never want to disturb people). It'll take time, but definitly worth the effort. Thanks again, Carla and Jo.

[WDM]

>On a different note, I am a concerned that some posters
>think it amusing, or at least acceptable, that a dog would
>tear out the eye of another, smaller dog.


Anne, is there anything I could say that would change your view of me, my dane, or the incident?

Duane with
Ch. Geisha, Harley and Iris in
Saginaw Michigan
Great Lakes...Great Danes
http://duanemorgan99.tripod.com/DuanesDanes/

[HowardsMom]

Thank you for your concern. I have read several of your posts, so I don't have a bad opinion of you at all. I also see that you are a charter member and I am such a newbie that I am surprised that I had the neuticles to criticize you at all.

I realise that your story was told partially as a response to James' contention that modern danes are not worthy of their heritage. In re-reading the thread this afternoon, I also noticed that you said, "Believe me, it was not funny at the time either..." and you told that story of how your dog Geisha dealt much less aggressively with a smaller dog.

I am just concerned when I see stories about danes or any large breed reacting aggressively to smaller dogs or people. The liability alone is staggering, to say nothing of the bad press. I was more concerned about the attitude in your post and some subsequent ones than the fact that your dog did what it did. Imagine if your dog did something like that again and someone researched you and found that post! Get out the checkbook!

And I can't throw rocks. I had a greyhound, adopted from the track, who Houdini'd her way out one day, raced across the street and killed poor inoffensive Mrs. Beasley, a wonderful cat who lived across the street from us. My fault, of course, not Dorian's. She was just doing what she had been trained to do: chase the furry, runny, bouncy thing. She was probably proud that she finally caught the darn thing.

Mrs. Beasely's parents, thank God, were also dog people and owned two rotties, so they knew how easily this could happen and didn't sue me. Mrs. Beasley went to the vet where she lingered for a few days and then died. I ended up paying huge vet bills, my insurance threw a fit, and required me to get rid of the dog. So I had to find Dorian (Greyhound) a new home with Prisoner of War Camp fencing. And I still feel terrible about the whole incident. So maybe this was a flashback for me as well.

[gmac]

What I think is distasteful, is the way that many small-dog owners allow their dogs to act. You who are so quick to judge Duane because his dog defended herself, her property, and her owner - what about the ill-mannered little dog who provoked it all in the first place? It's ok for the him to act like a little bully, but the large dog is supposed to show more restraint?

I am now the happy owner of THREE little dogs, and they do not know they are small, just as Maggie has no idea she is large. The puzzled look on her face when the three small ones troop through the doggie door that she can only poke her head through, proves that size is not an issue with dogs. That doesn't mean that I'm going to allow the little ones to taunt the big one, and get away with it. Maggie is not allowed to reprimand Daisy; that is my job.

Danes are supposed to be tolerant, but NO dog should be expected to put up with crap from another, regardless of size.

[WDM]

I'm pleased that you took the trouble to re-read the topic, and it is getting quite long and hard to follow. So often misunderstandings are due to seeing something out of context or reading something into a post that wasn't there at all.
Here is an interesting article about an aspect of showing that I'll bet you have never heard of. It is called Sparring and is done with terriers and is supposed to show them at their best when they display aggression toward another terrier.

http://www.caninechronicle.com/features/ric/chashoudian-1102.html
http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/about_dogs/42885/latest/15#message_1

I'll tell you one thing about Geisha and that is that she is breathtaking when she senses some threat outside the fence while in the yard. She brings herself up in a beautiful pose and will just float across the yard, almost as though she were in tiptoes, to face whatever sound she heard. In danes this is called attitude. In humans it might be called leadership. It is when a dog enters a room or show ring and the dog has a "look at me" presence. Some people have it. They are the ones that seem to take charge as soon as they enter a room and project a presence that is sensed rather than defined. This CAN become agression in a dog if not controlled. My male dane, Harley has this also and he is most definitely not agressive. In as much as I got him when he was 2 1/2 years old and had little training, there was a good deal of concern when he would display his "leadership attitude". He is co-owned by the breeder, as are all of my danes, and she was very much afraid that he was aggressive. Since I got him I made it clear that I was his master or "alpha". Once, at training class he growled at another dane and I rolled him right there. By that I mean that I grabbed him around the neck and pulled him to the ground and lay across his body. He offered no resistance and I explained to him that he was not to growl. He does not do it, at least out loud. He will do a growl so low that it does not make a sound but I can feel it in the lead. He does this only when he makes his "entrance". It is his way of announcing that he is there and to notice him. If you have ever seen a bull enter the bull ring, in movies or TV perhaps, you will see what I mean about attitude. However he sees smaller dogs and children as puppies and is very gentle with them. This is the way all of my male danes have been. Harley is different with his attitude. He is a very dominating dog and not one for someone that is not willing to control and contain this. I have spent many hours at the local Petsmart and many other places as well. Indeed, I was very cautious in the beginning and watched very carefully for any sign that he was acting aggressive. In fact I found just the opposite. He loved meeting strangers and little dogs. I had a problem restraining his enthusiasm when meeting someone new. He would bounce on his forefeet with excitement and drag me over so he could see them. I have gotten him over this and he will stand still while the person comes to him now. Last Sun. I was mobbed as soon as I got in the store and we were surounded by at least 8 to 10 people and dogs. Harley turned to each and allowed them to pet him before going to the next. This included a couple of small dogs that thought he was just wonderful. He carefully touched noses with each. I tell people that he thinks they all came there just to see him. I really believe that is what he thinks. He is still a little uncertain in the ring but if he displays his "attitude" I think he will do better than he has. I think even he is intimidated by the danes in the ring. They ARE impressive.
Just so I AM staying on topic, Harley is not only line bred, but is inbred. This is done when a breeder feels that they have come close to producing what they are after and want to preserve the characteristics to be passed on in outcrosses.

Duane with
Ch. Geisha, Harley and Iris in
Saginaw Michigan
Great Lakes...Great Danes
http://duanemorgan99.tripod.com/DuanesDanes/

[JennyLynn]

I agree with Gwenna. It would be one thing if this dane had attacked the smaller dog on neutral territory like the dog park, or on a walk down the street. But this little dog came tearing up onto the dane's home turf, looking for a fight. Its a natural instinct for dogs to defend their home and family.

And while I agree with some of the things you say James, you also seem to be sending out mixed messages.... It seems as though in one breath you're saying Danes should be tolerant, kind, and patient with other animals, but in the same breath you seems to say they should have the prey drive of a boar hunter, and not run from threats (i.e. snarling racoon). Is it okay to attack a snarling racoon, but not a snarling dog that invades your home? Or are you saying that a dane should be tolerant of both a snarling racoon and a small snarling dog, and let them both chew on their legs while he stares at it, confused. How can you teach you dog to know the difference?

I'm having a hard time putting your thoughts together...can you break it down for me?

[HKDanes]

>Carla, you and Jo just opened my eyes along with a light
>bulb going off in my head!!!:7 I've posted here before that
>I felt that the conformation ring is not a test for
>temperament. I still believe that to a point, but, duh!,
>what happens AROUND the ring is an excellent way to observe
>the dogs attitude.
Thanks again, Carla and Jo.

Karen, no thanks are necessary on my part. I do have a story. About twenty years ago, there was a dog. I never saw him at ringside until it was time for him to be shown. He was then brought in as quickly as possible so that he didn't have time to react to the other dogs standing around. He would be shown and then wisked away. I still see his influence today. Unfortunately he was bred many times and sired many champions. But guess what? He doesn't appear in my pedigree because of what I observed back then and still do today. Temperament, good and bad, is easily seen at shows and many will excuse a bad temperament as "nerves". This doesn't fly with me. Bad temperament can be made but I think it is moreso in the genes. JMO...Jo

[jamesspader]

Michele,

I admire you for actually "doing something" with your danes. I think protection training is one of the most useful things you can do with your dane in this day and age. They are so well-suited to it, just size alone is a deterrent, but if the dog has the skill and training to back it up, that is truly a formidable combination.

As for your dogs, I didn't attack them, but was only responding to Alicat's hypothetical pride at her dog hypothetically running from a raccoon. I don't think most danes would be that cowardly, but encouraging that sort of behavioral characteristic is something which I believe to be undesirable.

I wouldn't mind trying on the suit though; I like a good challenge... trying to stand my ground against a well-trained and skilled protector.


Jimmy

[jamesspader]

It seems as
>though in one breath you're saying Danes should be tolerant,
>kind, and patient with other animals, but in the same breath
>you seems to say they should have the prey drive of a boar
>hunter, and not run from threats (i.e. snarling racoon). Is
>it okay to attack a snarling racoon, but not a snarling dog
>that invades your home? Or are you saying that a dane
>should be tolerant of both a snarling racoon and a small
>snarling dog, and let them both chew on their legs while he
>stares at it, confused. How can you teach you dog to know
>the difference?
>
>I'm having a hard time putting your thoughts together...can
>you break it down for me?


I don't think courage and predictability are mutually exclusive. They both appear (and in my opinion belong) in the standard. Courageous in that the dog will not run away, but predictable in that he will not engage unless told (if well-trained). The prey drive I do not feel to be necessary, as was mentioned earlier hunting dogs really are often too high strung to be pets. On the other hand, if this breed could once hunt boar, it should at least remain courageous enough not to tuck tail and run at the first sign of danger. The balance I think is the key, though the two are somewhat at odds with each other. Additionally "courage" does not mean "drivin to prey", but simply not afraid, willing to stand its ground. In the end, we are still dealing with dogs here, and a little fluff ball of a dog might not seem that different than a squirrel or rabbit (which all dogs chase)... so you can't put too much blame on the dog.... In my experience, however, large dogs are ordinarily so kind to small dogs, and do make that distintion. In my opinion it's because they do recognize small dogs and humans as members of the "pack" and not prey. Furthermore, dogs and wolves establish dominance regularly, rarely actually hurting the lower ranking dog.

[gmac]

>
>I'll tell you one thing about Geisha and that is that she
>is breathtaking when she senses some threat outside the
>fence while in the yard. She brings herself up in a
>beautiful pose and will just float across the yard, almost
>as though she were in tiptoes, to face whatever sound she
>heard.

You've described this beautifully. Maggie does this, and it's almost like she is transformed.

[HKDanes]

>I think protection training is one of the most useful things
>you can do with your dane in this day and age. They are so
>well-suited to it, just size alone is a deterrent...
>Jimmy

I certainly hope that you aren't serious. Danes are not suited to protection and attack training because of their size. They can easily reach the throat of the attacker. In police work, I think the object is to restrain the perpetrator and not kill him outright.

In my questionnaire for prospective puppy parents, I ask about plans for the puppy. Are they interested in showing? Obedience? Attack/protection work? If they answer "Yes" to the protection work, they are immediately asked to look elsewhere after I explain why.

My show career started in the Midwest. Back then dogs were only allowed in the oldest rooms of the oldest hotels and some of the shows were not in the best parts of town. I cleared many hallways and elevators by merely walking with my Danes. No one ever harrassed me when I had to go out at night with them. The dogs never growled nor even looked aggressive but people stayed away. I didn't mind one bit.

One night, my motel door opened and thankfully the safety chain was on. My dog pushed his nose through the crack without a bark or growl. Whoever had opened the door departed swiftly. A waist high (or higher depending on the size of the person) head was all it took to discourage any further mischief. Gee, and he was even an AKC champion of record...Jo

[jensdanes]

I met a dog professional trainer one time who had an imported bitch and she told me all about her dog and even demonstrated about some of her training...she had a long list of certifications, search and rescue, therapy, on and on... Everything except "attack/protection" (I'm sure that's not the proper name) and the reason is that the dog took great joy in attacking people and was having a real hard time getting her to stop after doing so, she said it was because once her instincts are sorta reminded about their origin, she was becoming a much different dog and she didn't want that. Long ago, had an Akita who killed (and shredded)my cat...she had to go immediately!!!! My feeling was once she had felt the "thrill of the kill", who was next, another cat, dog, my kids...me?? Shoulda have done more research before THAT breed/dog!

Anyway, just my 2 cents!

[gmac]

>Michele,
>
>I admire you for actually "doing something" with your danes.
>I think protection training is one of the most useful things
>you can do with your dane in this day and age. They are so
>well-suited to it, just size alone is a deterrent, but if
>the dog has the skill and training to back it up, that is
>truly a formidable combination.
>
>As for your dogs, I didn't attack them, but was only
>responding to Alicat's hypothetical pride at her dog
>hypothetically running from a raccoon. I don't think most
>danes would be that cowardly, but encouraging that sort of
>behavioral characteristic is something which I believe to be
>undesirable.
>
>I wouldn't mind trying on the suit though; I like a good
>challenge... trying to stand my ground against a
>well-trained and skilled protector.
>
>
>Jimmy


I think this is the sort of ego-driven nonsense that has been the doom of Rottweilers, Dobermans, Pitbulls, German Shepherds - all dogs that have very little bite inhibition and a strong protective drive. Great Danes do not have, and ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE the sort of temperment needed to guard, herd, or fight. I would no more use a Great Dane to do Police or Protection work then I would use it to hunt ducks in November. Need I say more? Perhaps the Great Dane is not the breed best suited to someone of your temperament.

[mp]

As many know, in the 19th and early 20th century the Dane was called the boarhound and even shown in classes titled Ulm Hound. I'd love to see the breed and kennel club minutes and correspondence, if they still exist, that led to the Dane being placed in the Workihg group instead of the Hound group. Perhaps because they were one of the large breeds used for pulling carts and powering small mill wheels in 19th-century Europe, having run out of boars to chase? mp

[kwhit]

Jo...Your post brought back a memory I had about this very subject. Quite a few years ago, when I had my very first Dane, Jake, I was at a BBQ over my friend's house and her brother, Dave, was there. He was a police officer with the K-9 unit in Fremont, CA. I had Jake there with me, (he was a definite social butterfly!), and someone came up to Dave and commented that he should use dogs like Jake in his work. Dave looked at the guy like he was insane! I'll never forget what happened next. Dave patted his shoulders for Jake to jump up on him and then looking straight at the guy, (while Jake was face to face with Dave), and said, "And where do you think this dog would bite first?" The guy just said, "Oh...yeah, right." At that point, Jake gave Dave a huge slobbery kiss which kind of ruined the effect, but was hilarious. Anyway, I truly hope that no one would ever use Danes in protection work, after all, what's the point? Their size alone will work! :7

[MiHi]

I am not going to sit here and go into the different aspects of French ring or Schutzhund as we know that everyone has a different opinion and mind set. But please remember that a well trained dog and a responsible owner can have fun doing more then just conformation and agility.

A well rounded dog, with the true Great Dane temperament (The Great Dane must be spirited, courageous, always friendly and dependable, and never timid or aggressive.) can participate in any sport and do well.

I have seen a small Malinios lauch itself to hit high shoulder, where my bitch won't hit anything that isn't presented properly. You also have to remember that it's not like we go 'patrolling' at night to catch bad guys.

[Cujasky]

>Lest we remember that the Dane was once a cunning hunter.


An interesting site about the History of the Great Dane, as well as excerpts from publications from the early breeders who developed what has since become the "Contemporary" Great Dane. Very interesting reading

http://groups.msn.com/THEGREATDANEINHISTORYANDART/welcomepage.msnw

[D4D]

Work this one out then...
In Australia, the Great Dane is in the Non-sporting Group....
Which means we have to show against the "fluffy dogs" such as Poodles, Chow Chows & Keeshonds for Group.... ;-)

[mp]

Now that's a tough one! You'd think chows would be candidates for working. mp

[danemaybe]

"what about the ill-mannered little dog who provoked it all in the first place?"

i really dont see how this dog was protecting herself considering, 1) she knew this little dog, it was her neighbor, and 2) she was inside!

just yesterday some little dog :D was yapping away at my dog and he just stared at him (and me). of course i think these people are idiots for just letting there dog go nuts but i would be a complete IDIOT if i didnt make sure my dog did absolutely nothing about it. should he be allowed to kill or mame every little dog that has an attitude??? (i had to train him to do this by the way, he used to start to growl at them).

[Zoeys Mom]

>Great Danes do not have, and
>ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE the sort of temperment needed to
>guard, herd, or fight.

If I'm not mistaken, weren't Danes used as estate guard dogs after their boarhound days were over?

[danemaybe]

"Danes are not suited to protection and attack training because of their size. They can easily reach the throat of the attacker. In police work, I think the object is to restrain the perpetrator and not kill him outright."

although i cant possibly imagine a dane doing k-9 work, i think its wrong to assume a police dog would kill someone just because he could. i dont believe that is what they train them for bc, if it was, i am pretty sure a rott can do some life threatening damage himself.

[samchacha]

I in my mind GREAT DANES are supposed to be GENTLE GIANTS ...
I think a Great Dane is not supposed to do over exercises ...
my opinion only. <
I think Danes should only do basic obedience, conformation and zootherapy !

[jpy]

*WARNING*WARNING* TROLL ALERT!

[aj]

As your speaking of showing and genetic defects. I know first hand about this. A show dog with a BISS Am Int CH that her hips was so bad she did not pass the OFA. But is probably going to be bred due to the fact she won so many titles.

Like one breeder said you cannot see genetic defects in the ring, thyroid, hips ( if not bad enough already). Which I feel is so sad that breeders have gone this route to breed for the ring. It really hurts us the people who are new to The Great Dane world as we are the ones who suffer with a dane who has been prepped for the show but lacks the health to have any longivity.

It's also not about how to dress (the handler that is) in the ring to win. But this is what some breeders/owner/handlers are doing to win.

Little tricks like using ice cubes on the Danes ears prior to showing so their ears stand straighter. Using the gate of their dog to impede the gate of the Dane in front or behind them, there are so many tricks that are being used. Also researching judges to find a judge that is partial to your dogs attributes, and driving sometimes long distances to show in front of that judge. Here I thought politics in our government was bad however the politics in the show ring should be left out.

I'm new to this, I'm not a breeder, handler, or even a Dane owner right now. I'm looking for a good breeder though.

The first show I attended I was unaware that the dog shows, I was told by one breeder was to select the finest breeding stock, NOT to win by going to show after show after show in so many different areas to finally get enough points to get a ch in their name.

The last show we attended one dog was starting to throw-up, the handler grabbed the dogs mouth and kept it closed, I dont know if this is the normal thing to do but seemed odd to me, after a few minutes of a heaving motion I thought the dog was going to bloat, it went #2 in the ring, the smell was still lingering long after the cleanup was done.

This is somewhat of a touchy subject for me. I do not know how to end my post except to end as I could go on.

Genetics has a strange way of showing up in a puppy from its previous generations skipping one litter and rearing its ugly head in another. This I feel bad for the breeders trying to actually improve their line, but the breeder breeding just to win the in the show ring and not improvement in the Dane is breeding for the ego of the breeder.

Best wishes to all
aj

[Mariah]

>The last show we attended one dog was starting to throw-up,
>the handler grabbed the dogs mouth and kept it closed, I
>dont know if this is the normal thing to do but seemed odd
>to me, after a few minutes of a heaving motion I thought the
>dog was going to bloat, it went #2 in the ring, the smell
>was still lingering long after the cleanup was done.

A bit off the main subject I know, but I also would like to know if this is 'normal' ;-) as that is downright cruel in my eyes. x(

[aj]

RE warning warning Troll alert

Since Im new to this please tell me what this means.

thank you
best wishes
aj

[rock_girl]

AJ

I am not sure if JP is referring to you, Samchacha, or Mariah as the troll. Since you and Samchacha lack user profiles…it does make ya'll a bit suspect. However, in the best interests of giving a person the benefit of the doubt, here is the info about trolls and other web acronyms you requested.

[link:www.danesonline.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=4492&forum=DCForumID16|Silly Questions Link]

[Carolyn]

Actually Steph I think JP was saying that the original poster is trolling as her reply is "attached" to the original question.
Carolyn
Divine Acres Great Danes

Edit to add: I agree...........

[aj]

rock_girl
I started looking at this post due to being at the top of the post in this forum brought about by samchacha.

after looking at the post order and dates of posts jpy's post was about a month before mine but 2 days after samchacha, Jpy's post said in response to message #0.
I cannot speak for jpy dont even know her but I'm not a troll
you can go to
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WIAT
and see what this gentleman has to say about trolls.

I in my post was speaking from experience of things that has happened to me and what I have seen, as far as the dane in the ring ask Bev K she may have seen it also as she was at that show. I'm curious as to why someone would do that to the dane, and maybe this is normal practice, I dont know .
I ask questions to learn as I'm positive there is alot more experienced people on here than me. That's why I like it here there is so much knowledge here its amazing to me, I just wish people would get along better but I understand that there are charactor differences everywhere you go I've learned a few things thru hard knocks, but I keep going and try to learn the corret way.

I do have a question to Carolyn as to her response about ( edited ) to agree, agree to what?

I went to check on my profile as you say rockgirl it says "disabled" if I click on profile in my post, this is strange, so I went to user profile and wala my profile is there, I can edit or do almost anything to change my profile (name address ect.) but I do not see a way to change this from being disabled as I see no question or anything to make my profile disabled,

so dont know if this clarifed this to you at all Im confused.
I did look at Samchacha and there is a profile for her.

So Im not sure what your talking about, yes mine is disabled but I didnt do it dont know how to, like I said earlier there is no question that I see to change this, unless I dont understand the questions being asked.

well anyway LOL
best wishes
aj

[Ellen]

<<The last show we attended one dog was starting to throw-up, the handler grabbed the dogs mouth and kept it closed, I dont know if this is the normal thing to do but seemed odd to me, after a few minutes of a heaving motion I thought the dog was going to bloat,>>



Could someone PLEASE speculate for me as to WHY the handler might do this????

[Bev_K]

>Could someone PLEASE speculate for me as to WHY the handler
>might do this????

I did see it and I'm guessing she was trying to prevent him from throwing up in the ring. I've never seen that happen before.

Bev

[empm]

Oh my God!!!!!!! This is getting harder to read all the time! THAT POOR DOG!!! Why didn't someone SAY something to someone, or is that not PC? That, to me, is cruelty and abuse!I just hate to even try to imagine it.

[gsxrsean]

>>Could someone PLEASE speculate for me as to WHY the handler might do this????<<

I can only imagine it was to keep from being excused.
You are not supposed to show an ill dog and you can be excused for it. I would also question the person who had the dog in the ring in the first place, that is simply inexcusable.

[Carolyn]

<<I do have a question to Carolyn as to her response about ( edited ) to agree, agree to what?>.

that I think the original poster (Jamesspader) was trolling.
Carolyn
Divine Acres Great Danes

[aj]

Thank you Carolyn for clarifying that.

gsxrsean Thank you, I thought it strange the way the dog was heaving heavily, the dog looked bad its stomach going in and out, I felt bad for the dog. Danes are so wonderfully sensitive, I hope this incident doesnt affect him showing.
Now knowing the handler/owner or who ever was showing the dog was just trying to get the dog thru the show, I feel she should get some kind of feedback from the judge or ( if that actually happens) maybe a mark on the handlers record, I do not know how all this works Im trying to learn as I go.

Bev thank you for replying

Ladies have a good day
best wishes
aj