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jpy
09-17-2000, 07:48 PM
Since we have archives now & this topic has come up again lately, thought I'd post this little handout I have to help newcomers use a pedigree to help thm buy a quality-bred pup.

When shopping for a puppy, the subject of pedigrees normally comes us.This handout will help the average buyer use a pedigree to help ascertainthe quality of the dogs in the family of a pup they are considering purchasing.First, briefly--some general info on pedigrees & the AKC. The AKC will register ANY dog with two registered parents of the same breed & all pups have a pedigree, so this in itself is *no* sign of quality. It isn't just "blue-bloods" that have papers. Secondly no dog without papers, by definition, *is* a purebred. Papers signifiy this if nothing else. Thirdly, good show/breed prospects & good potential pet Danes are born in the *same* litters. Don't think that wanting "just a pet" means you can safely buy a pup from an inferior litter. It is very hard to breed a dog with good tempermament, health & proper breed characteristics. It doesn't happen by accident & it's a rare event if it happens at all in casual & commercially bred litters. All AKC Great Danes (GDs) are "Champion bloodlines," no matter how *badly* bred, so this is a meaningless phrase. A pedigree lists all the titles the dog officially received. OFA info as well as DNA cert. info is also on that pedigree. Every pedigree given to you should be color-marked as well. The names of the dogs in it also shouldn't be sorted into "unknown" & "famous" but by families (kennel names) who are usually known for producing a particular set of traits.
A pedigree gives you both the history & philosophy behind the breeding of any dog--if you learn to read the pedigree. Great Dane pedigrees, like the breed itself, are grouped by color families. Fawn/brindle pups from carefully bred litters have pedigrees that are essentially all CH(=Champions). There might be the odd female who isn't a CH; occassionally even a male, but any quality fawn/brindle pet pup, let alone show prospect has a pedigree in which almost EVERY SINGLE RELATIVE in EVERY SINGLE GENERATION is
a CHAMPION. There are about 300 fawn/brindle Danes who achieve their CH every year. Given a breeding age of 2-6 for females that is almost 5000 CH-bred offspring for sale in any year, even if you count the numbers very conservatively. Fawn-brindle pedigrees normally have no color but fawn/brindle in them. Black pedigreess are, these days, pretty much like that of fawn/brindle. In fact good black pedigrees can often have fawn in them. Most are a sea of CH dogs. Black pedigrees can have fawn, or blue in them, but shouldn't have both as a rule. Harls (merles, etc.) shouldn't show up in these black pedigrees.(Harl-bred blacks are dealt with below with the Harl family.) (go on to part two-blues/harls/mantles)
Blues go with black pedigrees. Blues are recessive to black & a bit fewer number so their are less finished (i.e. fewer CHs)every year, but their are also fewer quality litters produced. Blue pedigrees normally have all the males & some of the females as CHs. BLue pedigrees shouldn't have any color but black in them. Harls are a seperate color family as a rule (Mantles are included in "harl pedigrees," as are merle pets.) Harl pedigrees are hard for a newcomer to read & understand. Generalizations are more difficult than with the other colors, but here is a general guide: any harl pedigree should have at least three CHs in the parents & grandparents of the pup. Either BOTH parents and 1-2 grandsires, or the sire & both grandsires are commonly CHs. If you look at the typical "4" generation pedigree (parents, g-parents & g-g-parents of your pup shown), there should be at least 6-7 CHs. (CHs should become more common soon as now we can show the Mantledane.) Harl pedigrees might have other colors in them. "Whites" or white with black (double-merle dogs) are sometimes bred to "blacks" (or black and white) dogs in some pedigrees. These "blacks" are not normally solid black & are usually actually Mantles. There might be the occassional merle in a harl pedigree. There might even be an occassional fawn visible (all harl pedigrees have fawn behind them somewhere). There shouldn't be blues & there shouldn't be many of anything not listed as harl or black/black& white/mantle. There should be even less soon, as the proper harl-black (i.e. Mantle) now can be shown. These other colors such as merle & white are disqualifications under the standard & should not be used with any regularity in a breeding program.
Other things beside the EXPECTED CHs are pluses. Like having OFA in a pedigree. Like having performance titles such as CD,TD & the like. DNA certification will soon be nearly mandatory as any dog producing more than 3 litters a year or 7 in a lifetime must now be DNA registered with the AKC, so this, like "papers" is pretty meaningless already, except on bitches & if on both parents you have proof the offspring is from those two dogs. DNA certification on a dog means he is being used a lot at stud--which is not necessarily a good thing (or a bad thing). Don't be awed by talk of "papered" dogs--ask for & then use the pedigrees to see what you are getting. Beyond the *necessary* titles, ask what the family is "known" for, & who is behind the line, who these people bought *their* dogs from. And as to websites, quality breeders proudly display their pedigrees online as these are part of their guarantee of quality. Oh yes, & the obvious, but often overlooked part--don't buy from ANYONE not showing their own dogs, no matter
how "awesome" they claim their pedigrees are. If they are not showing, they are not likely"connected," not keeping up to date & unless they are practically giving those pups away, they are profit-oriented, as it is the showing/going to seminars, research,travel, stud fees, professional fees, etc, belonging to clubs that makes breeding good pups so expensive. People who sit & home and breed, even if they do some kind of "health checks" to make their puppies more saleable, couldn't be spending more than a few hundred on a litter, so you shouldn't be paying hundreds per pup for dogs *out of this sort of litter--dogs are not supposed to be bred with a profit in mind.
Quality breeders won't boast, but they are hoping you will find them.They hope you'll know how to read them & know how to seperate the sheep from the goats. Teach yourself how to buy a well bred pup!

Bonnie M
09-17-2000, 07:48 PM
Thanks to everyone for their input on this message board. I have watched in the background and I have learned plenty. My question is: I have friend that has a Boston Dane and is she is looking for a Blue to breed with. Does this mean that the Boston (Mantle) should have an all black pedigree with no harlequin mixed in? If she has a mantle from all black pedigree, where would the mantle color come from? I have read all of the posts and links but this gets somewhat confusing. Thanks, Bonnie

Carolyn
09-17-2000, 07:49 PM
Believe me, this is very confusing for all, it takes a long time to get it straight. If your friend has a Mantle, she should NOT breed to a blue. She should only breed to Black (bred black--no blue in pedigree) or another Mantle or a Harl. Look in the dogs pedigree to see that they are color pure.

Carol
09-17-2000, 07:49 PM
You don't breed mantle/blue. A blue needs to be bred to a blue or black from black/blue breedings. A mantle needs to be bred to a harlequin. You can do a mantle/mantle breeding now that the color has been approved for the show ring. So, mantle to mantle or harlequin but not blue. :

Cynthia
09-17-2000, 07:50 PM
I disagree with if the breeder is not showing they are not likely connected, that is not always true. At the present I don't show because of the political aspect of itand it also stresses out the dog. I am slowly working on showing my babies, but it is VERY POLITICAL. I was in horseracing for 7 years and this is one main reason I stopped POLITICAL. Also their aare ch. out there that shouldn't be. Just because some choose not to show don't mean they are running a puppy mill! It all boils down to the buyer doing their homework on the breeder. As for sitting at home and doing the health checks to make pups more saleable it cost more than a couple hundred dollars for these health checks. But I do agree 100% they should not be bred with profit in mind.
Cynthia

jpy
09-17-2000, 07:50 PM
Exceptions "PROVE" the rule, so it is the rule that counts--responsible breeders are reputable & reputable breeders show their dogs. Everything in life that involves people can be called 'political'--noone asked you to play this game, but if you are gonna agree to play, you play by the rules.
People who advertise "CH-bloodlines" & who sell pups for any amount of money are living off the hard work of the rest of us. Every BYBer & PMer & other sorts of casual & commercial breeder has an excuse for not spending money on their dogs & they all claim showing is "political" (but aren't doing it to know what it is), often make little insidious claims about 'show people' & 'show dogs' as well.
But the FACT of the matter is, if you want to be considered a reputable breeder, you put YOUR breeding prospects out there for all to see & you have them go under the gun just like the rest of us. Otherwise you fall into the category of making claims you cannot prove ("my dogs are breed worthy").
What showing is, is a helluva investment in your dogs & your dreams in terms of time, money & committment. You don't want to make that committment, fine. But don't claim the game isn't worth the candle just because *YOU* & your dogs were not successful at it.
And of course there are CH that shouldn't be bred--noone knowledgeable about the breed would ever claim otherwise, and not all show breeders, even reputable ones, are necessarily responsible either. It is naive to think that & naive or worse to suggest it to buyers. But these again are also exceptions that prove the rule that if you are a puppy buyer looking for a worthy pup you go to the source that has them regularly.
I hope you are not selling your pups for "show" prices & not selling breedstock to others to start up more non-show/breeding kennels if you don't feel you can make a proper committment to our breed. It's not nice to turn dog breeding into a private 'show' of your own, nor is it nice to plan for a profit on a litter & you cannot be spending over $1000/litter even with a totally extensive health checks if you breed your own dogs & don't show. So $1000/8 pups to sell is about $150 fair price per pup. Hope that if YOU are selling pups, you are selling pets on Limited Registration & selling them for no more than that.

Cynthia
09-17-2000, 07:51 PM
As for referring to me and my dogs at not being successful at showing you haven't a clue so don't point your finger at me. I know my Danes are of quality and I did my homework and bought mine from a rep. breeder who is highly active in showing. To me it sounds like you play the political game and whatever Ch. you have probably don't deserve it!! You throe sticks I will throw stones!! Sounds to me if you were a reputable you wouldn't be here 24/7 instead you would tend to your show prospects!!

Carolyn
09-17-2000, 07:51 PM
I dont want to step on anybodys toes, but may I add my 2 cents. Showing is a necessary part of a breeding program, how else are you determining if you breeding stock is of breed standard if not allowed to be judged by individuals that are professional in that field, qualified to tell you if your dane meets standards. Not only in conformation but more importantly in temperament. It takes a very well behaved dog to withstand the scrutiny that goes on at a dog show, most do well but some crumble under the test. I have seen a dog in the top twenty, be dog aggressive at almost every show I see him at, and yet people are still breeding to him---go figure!!! I do agree that people who dont show but say they are selling champion pedigrees are taking advantage of our blood, sweat and tears. I also handle my own dogs and know that the arena is political but also know I handle a dog (and others dogs)that are competitive and do win!! It is well worth the time, effort and money to get involved.

Cynthia
09-17-2000, 07:52 PM
I agree that showing is an aspect in a breeding program that is why I will not breed if their Temp. and overall conformation in not in speck. I just have a problem and I have watched is everybody loves your dog until the first point is recieved then people want to rip it to shreds. And I don't want anybody doing that to my babies.I know they could make something of themselves in the ring but the political part just gets to me. . What is your outlook on International shows they seem more laid back and less political then regular shows.
Cynthia

Carolyn
09-17-2000, 07:52 PM
Actually Cynthia,I had to laugh when I read your response (about people loving you until you get your first point and than your dog dirt). I know what you mean when you say that. My response is only this, treat others as you want to be treated, especially ringside. I try very hard not to pick apart anybodys dog, thats not for me to do, its for the judge to do, and if certain dogs get put up that I feel are far from standard, or worse yet, get put up because of whom is handling the dog, so be it, thats life and thank Gawd doesnt happen often, but ripping on anothers dog or owner wont change the results of the show, but those words may come back to haunt me in the future. The same people are usually at the shows and we become very close and very happy when each other wins, its comaradery(sp?)at its finest.
I would love to comment on the International shows but unfortunately dont know enough about them to do so. I looked at the website that JPY put up earlier about them but the closest one to me is 500 miles away!!! Plus I'm working towards my females AKC Championship, which only can be done at the AKC sponsored shows and that keeps me quite busy. If you live in Wisconsin or neighboring states, I would love to meet you at the shows.