buying a puppy-which one?

[terridane]

Hello DOL listmates,

I rarely post, mostly lurk for the last year or so. Trying to learn as much as I can about Great Danes before I buy. I have loved reading your collective wisdom. I found very sound advice here.

So here is my question: Sorry in advance for it being so long.

How much will merle patches on a harlequin coat count against us in the show ring? We are down to the wire and will be going to look at 2 litters of GD harlequin pups in the next couple of weeks. I would like to show him so I have checked as much as I can for everything else but the fine tuned stuff. Any wisdom you can offer will be greatly appreciated.

Here is the info I have:
2 different litters therefore different mothers and different fathers. They are only about 3 weeks old. I will get our pup when he is 8-9 weeks old. The pups are bred by a very reputable, ethical breeder here in Germany who has all the health certificates and harlequin champions etc in nearly every level of a very long pedigree. So now to the conformation of the pup. Dams of both are very similar (sisters) and have nice conformation and sires look near same as far as heads, topline, and musculature. So very similar conformation. So now to color. Harlequin for both pups. Now to the small stuff....the pattern of the "torn black patches". One pup is lightly marked harl with white collar and possibly a couple of very small merle spots on his sides and the other is heavier marked, white collar with a couple of larger merle spots on his sides. None of these spots are very big but the pups are only 3 weeks old.

I know conformation is most important but if the conformation may be the same for both pups (nice hopefully)I guess my questions pertain to how much will be counted against us for the small merle spots that are mixed in with the nicely distributed "torn black patches" found on both?

Thank you in advance for such a trivial matter but something I need to learn!




:) Terri in Heidelberg Germany

[witzn]

What does this reputable, experienced and successful breeder have to say about the difference?

What does the German standard say about it?

IMO I would worry about your own personal preference & the differences in conformation, movement and temperament that will become apparent when they are at least a little older.

[MuchAdo]

>Hello DOL listmates,
>
>I rarely post, mostly lurk for the last year or so. Trying
>to learn as much as I can about Great Danes before I buy. I
>have loved reading your collective wisdom. I found very
>sound advice here.
>
>So here is my question: Sorry in advance for it being so
>long.
>
>How much will merle patches on a harlequin coat count
>against us in the show ring? We are down to the wire and
>will be going to look at 2 litters of GD harlequin pups in
>the next couple of weeks. I would like to show him so I
>have checked as much as I can for everything else but the
>fine tuned stuff. Any wisdom you can offer will be greatly
>appreciated.


I'd let the breeder choose for you. If they're that reputable and experienced and successful, they'll be able to see the small differences in conformation that will make a heck of a bigger difference in your show career than whether there are small merle patches. Ask them which puppy they would keep if they were choosing between the two--and since you're looking for a show puppy, be a little bit cautious if the breeder swears they can choose at three weeks or four weeks. It's really hard, if not impossible, to tell the show picks at that early age.

Joanna Kimball
muchadodanes.home.attbi.com

[terridane]

Sandy,

The breeder has not been asked by me which one of the two she would recommend. I am gathering all info I can because when I ask her that question I think it will be time to decide. She has said that these appear to be the best from each litter (I agree), and that we should wait until after 4-6 weeks to see how the color comes along. So I am in the "info gathering stage" at this point and trying to become more educated from others with experience in this matter. I think I am lucky to have such excellent pups to choose from and I dont think either will be disappointing. As you can tell my confidence is low because I am a novice.

I will be showing in the US after we move back this summer. I believe the standard in US does say its not preferred to have any merle patch. The pups I am looking at have 2 small merle patches each about 1 cm in size.

I guess I am asking what does the merle do in the ring? I have looked at the "winner's circle" here on DOL and through some of the Dane magazines and I do occasionally see some merle. So it makes me think it might be judged less harshly if the conformation is good. But is it forgiven if not very big or completely frowned on in the US ring?

Thanks again for your time!

I really appreciate your responses and hope to learn more with each visit to DOL.

Terri

[iniuria]

It's kind of like white on blacks (and blues). Is it preferred? No, not really. Does it make THAT big of a difference? Not really. All other things being equal, conformation, presentation, etc., only then would coloring really come into play. How often are you going to run into a situation like that? Not often. I've seen champions with huge merle patches, just as I've seen champions with a lot of white. Nearly all harles have merle patches somewhere on them.

Keep in mind, merle on harles often changes and become solid black. I think there was a thread on it awhile ago in the Colors forum? You could search the archives perhaps.

However, it seems to me the breeder is placing a lot of emphasis on the color of these puppies:

"She has said that these appear to be the best from each litter (I agree), and that we should wait until after 4-6 weeks to see how the
color comes along."

Is color really the thing you should be looking at here? These puppies aren't even half siblings, and what might look like minor differences to you, will be major in the ring-- and it has nothing to do with color. Conformation and attitude are the MOST important things in the show ring (health aside). Really, color is just about the LAST thing you need to be looking at, as I guarantee it will be the last thing the judges will be looking at also. Small merle patches, big merle patches-- no difference in color at all between these pups as far as I can tell. Don't make the mistake of choosing the puppy that has the nicest markings-- that's probably the worst mistake you could make. Unless the nicest marked pup turns out to have the nicest conformation, but do you really want to take that chance?

[witzn]

Ok, in the US the color will come into play at a point - but unless either puppy is very heavily marked or very dirty in color or has a substantial amount of merle markings on the show (left side), it shouldn't be that much of a factor.

The illustrated standard, I think available at www.gdca.org, shows the range in acceptable harl markings. The AKC breed video shows a range of champion harls, from very "swirly" to clean crisp marked dogs.

Nearly all harlequins have visible merle somewhere on them, so long as the majority of the dog is black and white, the merle is not really an issue. It is more important the dog is attractively marked - no markings that detract from it's appearance, especially oddly marked heads or solid legs. IMO ideally the dog will have good pigment and strong markings over the eyes, clean white neck and mostly white front legs and chest, the body will be made up of medium to small well broken up torn patches with a minimum of merling.

Is there a way to put pics of the pups online? I still doubt the markings will be the main factor between them, but I also doubt they will change so drastically as to make one show or not show marked in a few weeks.

For dogs with large amounts of merle that were top US specials - look up pictures of dogs like Ch Giant Step's Front Page News, half of her head was merle. There are other specials that had very large merle spots - but on the off side - so looking up their show pics would not help to see it.

[terridane]

Sandy and Inuria and Muchado,

This is exactly the discussion I needed. Thank you all. I have never been in a conformation ring (novice)nor have I seen very many Harls in person. Only conformation photos (sooo many) and a few "live" dogs. So the information you are giving me helps alot. Its nice to know that most harls have at least some small patch of merle on them. I guess I thought the winners never had it. What a relief to hear! Thanks for e-mentoring me!

I may have mislead you in believing it was the breeder who made a big thing about color. Its me that is more concerned, I am more concerned with it because its the only thing I feel I have left to pick. She has been such a great source for looking at the pups with a breeders critical eye, something I dont have or ever will. I guess this would be looking at the pup and (as much as anyone can tell at such a young age) feeling which one might be the best at conformation. I have read many posts in the archives regarding some pups that you pick for show at 3-5 weeks changes by 8 weeks so I realize this may be early but I want to learn. She is not pressuring me to decide at this point. Its ME pressuring me. I just want to weigh other opinions besides hers (big weighted) and mine (feather weighted!)
:)

Both are very attractively marked. I know here in Germany the trend seems to be heavier marked. But looking at winners in the last 3 years in USA they seem to be getting lighter and lighter. My personal preference is the clean white with moderate amount of black torn patches.

I respect the wisdom of the responders to this question and I appreciate the comments given. I look forward to hearing your comments on the picture idea.


I will try to load up a picture of the pups. I think I need Paul's approval to add a picture. How do I do that?
Terri

[terridane]

I agree the breeder should ultimately decide for me, although its hard to give up control of the selection :). She will probably choose around 8 weeks then we will come to pick him up. I am learning so much and where I had been concentrating on "angles" and "form", "croup" and "stop" I really didnt concentrate on the intricate stuff of color. Just general harlequin. Now I know more about black noses, and token merle patches and toenail color. But I am only 10% there and so far to go.

My whole family is excited to know which pup is going home with us May 10th. It will be hard to wait another 4 weeks but others have survived! LOL


Terri in Heidelberg Germany
Terri in Heidelberg Germany

[jpy]

Terri asks: "I know conformation is most important but if the conformation may be the same for both pups (nice hopefully)I guess my questions pertain to how much will be counted against us for the small merle spots that are mixed in with the nicely distributed "torn black patches" found on both?"

It won't matter at all with a good Dane. On a Championship quality animal it is, as you noted, too trivial a flaw to be commented upon. There are multitudes of finished (Champion) Harlequins with very noticeable merle markings & other flaws of color. Just like there are pale fawns, fawns without masks, brindles with very few (or very many--reversed-)stripes, blues with white-splashed chests and toes, etc. Color flaws won't hold back an animal of quality, although some you will meet will see nothing else, granted (mostly newbies, though, are the ones obsessed with color). But the more experienced in the breed know ALL harlequins have some merle on them and not all quality harlequins have the most aesthetically pleasing of markings or have their merle spots "tucked away" where they are less seen. The able sees past trivial things like minor if visible merling. Go look thru the GDCA yearbooks or other Dane publications. You'll see some of the "greats" in Harlequins have and have had blue eyes, much merling, odd markings, etc. As long as the dog is within the standard for color, the variation should be treated merely as "icing" when pretty, and a good cake shouldn't be tossed<G>as it has less icing than another!<VBG> If you stick with harls you'll most likely get to the point you don't see color anymore at all<G>LOL! Good luck from another former Heidelberg resident.

[jpy]

"Keep in mind, merle or harles often changes and become solid black."

I think (???) you mean merle PATCHES ON harls (?) can appear darken and appear black, not that merles or harls turn into black dogs? But this really is not the case, however pewter merling, the darker shades, will get so dark as to appear black. But BLACK patches/spots are black at birth and may expand, but are visible, as is merling. Merling can vary from the palest of silver to the darkest of charcoal and be in brownish "tarnished" shades from tan to chocolate, but merling is merling and isn't actually black, as the cells are disabled and cannot manufacture that full dense pigment that makes black. Although from a distance the darker merle (& in photos) is practically indistinquishable from black, granted, so it comes pragmatically down to the same thing, so maybe i'm just picking nits<G> :)

[terridane]

JP says, "If you stick with harls you'll most likely get to the point you don't see color anymore at all LOL! Good luck from another former Heidelberg resident."



JP, thanks for the words of wisdom and years of experience. The pups are just now 4 weeks old and I havent seen them yet, only email pictures. But they seem very healthy and thriving with the breeders and their moms good care. :)

Thanks for the good luck wishes, we soon fly across the big pond in June to sunny Florida. That will be a change from the gray days of Dec Jan Feb and Mar. Unusual for us, we have had sun for 2 weeks now..... wooo hooo! We have been here so long (6 years) I feel I am in for a culture shock returning to the USA. But we are ready to repatriate with our mother country!:)





Terri and new pup in May!!from Heidleberg